Titilope Sonuga's Expansive Artistry from Poetry to Performance and the Main Stage
In this episode of Odejuma, Harry chats with acclaimed poet and performer Titilope Sonuga. She speaks on how her personal and professional journey has shaped her as an artist and cultural storyteller. From her roots in Nigeria to her life and work in Canada, Titi speaks with vulnerability and wisdom about the power of embracing creativity, even in the face of uncertainty.
She reflects on her time as Edmonton’s Poet Laureate (2021–2023), her Dora Award nomination for her work in "Sankofa: The Soldier’s Tale Retold," and how acting in the popular Nigerian series "Gidi Up" expanded her artistic horizons.
Titi also discusses the impact of cultural duality on her art, exploring the evolving meaning of sisterhood with her most recent album and how motherhood has transformed her creative process. At the heart of the conversation is a call for a broader understanding of celebrating different artistic expressions, especially ones that embrace experimentation, imperfection, and personal growth.
Listen to Sis here: Titilope Sonuga - Sis
For more on Titilope, visit her website: Titilope Sonuga
For more information on Harry Itie, visit his website: Harry Itie
Transcript
Hi, my name is Harry, and welcome to Odejuma.
Speaker A:Odejuma recognizes the magic of storytelling.
Speaker A:From personal experiences to stories of adventure, from tales of resilience to finding joy in the simple things.
Speaker A:This story seeks to inspire, entertain, and educate because there is power in the stories of everyday people, and these stories are worth telling.
Speaker A:Hi, folks, and welcome to another episode of Odejuma.
Speaker A:And for this one, I'm very excited because I have someone who I deeply admire, who I deeply respect, who.
Speaker A:Their work is very moving, very inspirational.
Speaker A:I have Titi Lockwear Shonuga.
Speaker A:Hi, Titi.
Speaker A:How you doing?
Speaker B:Hi.
Speaker B:I'm well.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:I'm honored.
Speaker B:And, yeah, that was a very kind introduction.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker A:And I think that folks are always blown away by your work.
Speaker A:I feel like.
Speaker A:Like your art is so beautiful to witness.
Speaker A:For folks who are not aware, Titi is a poet, Tutui is an artist.
Speaker A:Titui is a writer.
Speaker A:Titi is a multimedia hyphenate, creative, and has the awards and the credentials to back it up.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, I feel like everybody needs to be familiar with your work.
Speaker A:And I feel like every time I come across a poem or something that you've put out or something that you've done, it's a whole experience.
Speaker B:Experience.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so just want to, in my own way, give you your flowers and your tens because it's very well deserved.
Speaker A:Very, very well deserved.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:I think, you know, first of all, congratulations on your nomination, your Dora Awards nomination for outstanding new musical and new opera for your work in Sankofa, the Soldier's Tale Retold.
Speaker A:And for folks who don't have.
Speaker A:Who need a context for what the Dora Awards is, America has the Tonys, the British have the Oliviers, Canadians have the Dora Awards.
Speaker A:So that this is really huge.
Speaker A:So how are you feeling right now about this news?
Speaker B:I think I've settled a little bit more.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I was truly gobsmacked because, like, this is.
Speaker B:That is not my world necessarily.
Speaker B:I'm a poet, and I have a general sense for how things work in our world.
Speaker B:And so this was like a really a new endeavor.
Speaker B:So I didn't have my mind on.
Speaker B:I didn't even know the announcements were happening.
Speaker B:I was just in my life and somebody tagged me on Instagram.
Speaker B:So I was stunned, truly by it, because it's a great honor.
Speaker B:And of course, as you know, nothing happens in isolation.
Speaker B:There's an incredible team of people that made it happen.
Speaker B:The work was commissioned by the Art of Time Ensemble and Directed by Tawie McCarthy, who's an incredible Ghanaian Canadian director.
Speaker B:And so I just feel like there were a lot of cooks and hands in the soup pot.
Speaker B:And so it feels truly like.
Speaker B:Like this kind of belongs to all of us and the effort that we made.
Speaker B:And so I was humbled, stunned.
Speaker B:And now I'm getting to a place of, like, wow.
Speaker B:Like, this is.
Speaker B:This feels truly, for me, like, affirmation and just, like, doing things that are unfamiliar.
Speaker B:I'd never written an opera before.
Speaker B:Like, what do I know about Stravinsky's music?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so it feels really affirming to just, like, it's like, just do the thing, and you never know what will happen next.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's fascinating.
Speaker A:You talk about, like, just doing the thing, and I think that that's something that we've seen throughout your career so far, like, progression and everything.
Speaker A:And even.
Speaker A:And I know this wasn't.
Speaker A:This wasn't opera, but I remember back in Nigeria, you did, like, an Adam musical, you know, and I don't think that's the only play you did.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You did.
Speaker A:You also.
Speaker A:You also did other, like, plays before.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would say that was, like, the biggest one.
Speaker B:Again, another thing where someone's like, oh, can you write a musical?
Speaker B:I'm like, yeah, of course.
Speaker B:Writes musicals.
Speaker B:Don't worry.
Speaker B:I had no idea what I was doing.
Speaker B:But yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:You know, yeah, that was a good, good.
Speaker A:I loved another musical.
Speaker A:I thought it was really.
Speaker A:It was so moving when I saw it.
Speaker A:I still remember it.
Speaker A:And so, like, your work has always had pulls from different, like, mediums.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Even though you're a poet, you incorporate music, you incorporate, like, performance and all these pieces.
Speaker A:Has that always been something that has been intentional for you as you're creating your work?
Speaker B:I mean, I think I just love stories, and for me, like, that storytelling is in everything.
Speaker B:I maybe beginning, I was, like, really invested in being a poet, you know, and whatever I thought that was.
Speaker B:But I think over time, and this is like a decade plus of doing this full time, what I've realized is that every time I move in the direction of what feels.
Speaker B:Feels exciting to me or feels true or feels joyful, then it really doesn't matter what medium or genre it fits into.
Speaker B:I'm just like, it feels most, like, the most urgent thing to do.
Speaker B:And I've.
Speaker B:I've trusted that instinct, and it's usually paid off.
Speaker B:And so I wouldn't say that I started off thinking in that way.
Speaker B:I think I started off quite Rigid, actually, as most young writers do.
Speaker B:You have a very clear sense of, like, this is the kind of writer I am.
Speaker B:But I think I've learned to take myself a little bit less seriously and to just do the things that I enjoy, things that light me up and let that fall into any category that it fits into in the end.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And of course, when I met you, you were.
Speaker A:You were.
Speaker A:I met you when you had moved back to Nigeria and, you know, now you're back in Canada.
Speaker A:I feel like your work is moved by how you're rooted in these two cultures and countries.
Speaker A:How does.
Speaker A:How does that inspire your art in any way?
Speaker A:Just living and living in being a Nigerian who's also Canadian, and having those cultures intermix.
Speaker A:How does that show up in your work and in your art?
Speaker B:Yeah, I was really in Nigeria, like, on my dulu, had no.
Speaker B:What an era.
Speaker B:But I think it was also one of my most powerful eras.
Speaker B:Just like saying yes, you know, that say yes to the universe and just do the thing.
Speaker B:I'm really grateful for that.
Speaker B:I think we're.
Speaker B:You know, there's this.
Speaker B:I'm going to butcher the quote, but just wherever you are, there you are.
Speaker B:You know, I feel like whether I'm in Lagos in Nigeria or here in Edmonton where I live, I'm always going to be kind of a mixture of all the people, the places, the cultures, the stories, the songs that have built me up.
Speaker B:And so that's always sort of with me.
Speaker B:I think my.
Speaker B:My work is less location specific and more like evolutions.
Speaker B:Like, where am I as a woman in this timeline of my life?
Speaker B:What is important to me?
Speaker B:What is urgent to me?
Speaker B:And I write in that direction, always from the vantage point of being, you know, a Yoruba Nigerian woman.
Speaker B:So there's like a sense in which that part of me is always integrated in the work.
Speaker B:I feel like when I'm in.
Speaker B:In Nigeria, I'm there for the energy, like, the electricity of that, like, just the vibes.
Speaker B:And when I'm here, there's a kind of more quiet lull to the pace of my life that then allows me to be more reflective.
Speaker B:So I think I toggle between the two places in that way.
Speaker A:Yeah, that is.
Speaker A:That is really beautiful to know.
Speaker A:Speaking of Edmonton, you were named the Edmonton Puerto Laurette.
Speaker A:First of all, how did I come about?
Speaker A:What does that entail?
Speaker A:How you feeling?
Speaker A:I feel like you're getting your flowers, you know, like I said earlier, earlier on.
Speaker A:But that must have been huge, you know, for you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:An Honor again, another honor is just like this feeling of like, you never know, you know.
Speaker B:So the poet laureate's job in the city is to be kind of like a literary ambassador for the city of Edmonton, to tell the stories of its people, its places, and do that through poetry.
Speaker B:And everybody that fills the role gets to decide how they want to do that.
Speaker B:But your job is essentially to bring poetry to the people and the people to poetry, and do this through this very specific Edmonton lens.
Speaker B:How did it come about?
Speaker B:You at any point can apply.
Speaker B:So you turn in an application that just says, yeah, I want to do this thing.
Speaker B:Consider me.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And then you submit and you get shortlisted or not.
Speaker B:And when you get shortlisted, you do an interview with a panel.
Speaker B:And for people before me, that panel was like, you know, in person at City hall, it's like this thing.
Speaker B:But because I was.
Speaker B:I took the position in a pandemic year, mine was virtual and I had had a baby literally three days before that.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:And so my.
Speaker B:I was like, not in my right mind yet, but I just remember.
Speaker B:I don't remember much of the interview because I think I time traveled, but yeah, you have an interview, a jury of your peers essentially asks you a bunch of questions about your plans.
Speaker B:What do you want to do?
Speaker B:Why do you think you should?
Speaker B:You know, like any job interview, and if it goes well, the next thing that happens, you get a call from the mayor of the city to let you know, which again, like, who gets a call from the mayor, you know, that kind of thing to let you know that you have gotten the job.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It goes for two years.
Speaker B:And in that two years, you just try to do as much as you can.
Speaker B:It never feels like enough time, but it's also a lot of time.
Speaker B:And so of course I have many thoughts about, oh, this is what I could have done differently.
Speaker B:But I think that's the beauty of it, is that each new poet laureate gets to bring their own sauce and do it in their own way.
Speaker B:It truly is like, it's a lifetime honor.
Speaker B:You only get to do it once.
Speaker B:And it feels very bucket list ish that that's something that has happened in my career already, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, that is beautiful.
Speaker A:And I feel like there are so many things I want to touch on based on just even that response alone that you just shared, just how you had, you know, giving birth, brought life into the world and had to go and show up for that interview.
Speaker A:How has, you know, being a parent, having able to navigate parenting and Your career.
Speaker A:What does that look like for you?
Speaker A:Because I know that parenting is.
Speaker A:Is quite, you know, is quite very hands on for a lot of folks.
Speaker A:So how do you navigate that?
Speaker B:It's funny, I was just watching your.
Speaker B:I think it was the one before this one about motherhood.
Speaker B:I was just thinking I probably could have been on this one because, like, yes, I think you don't.
Speaker B:You know, one of my friends always says you get to have it all, but not all at once.
Speaker B:And I think that.
Speaker B:That parenting or motherhood teaches you that, like it's largely sacrificial.
Speaker B:Your pace changes, where you can commit your time to changes, your mind changes, it changes you and for the better sometimes.
Speaker B:And sometimes there's a part of you that is gone forever and you have to mourn that loss as well.
Speaker B:I've been lucky in the sense that I think I've still created quite vigorously, even through mothering two children.
Speaker B: girl who arrived in Lagos in: Speaker B:But because they light up my life, it doesn't seem like I'm losing anything by spending an extra 10 minutes reading a book to my daughter that I could have been spending doing something else.
Speaker B:And so I kind of like, I've gotten better, I think, at holding the two things, giving the time to what needs the time and doing and being focused there and then turning my face towards the other thing.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think motherhood has made me more expansive than I was before.
Speaker B:I think there's a deeper sense of meanness that exists now and like a deeper kind of love.
Speaker B:And my children, the way that they view the world, the way that everything is novel and brand new, feels like something that as a creator that I could learn from, like that kind of sense of endless wonder, you know, so it's.
Speaker B:It's been a blessing.
Speaker B:Madly difficult, don't get me wrong, physically, all the things.
Speaker B:But, you know, we're here, you know, and I wouldn't take any of it, any of it back.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker A:And I know that I feel like sometimes it's always very personally, I feel I don't know how to approach that conversation with folks because, you know, it comes up in conversation.
Speaker A:Actually, I don't want it to feel like, you know, I don't want folks feel like they have to choose between.
Speaker A:I'm great at my job, you know, I'm great at parenting.
Speaker A:Or, you know, I feel like we all navigate this very differently, and you're.
Speaker B:Going to be messing up on one.
Speaker A:You know, we show up in the way that we can, but in a way that is authentic to who we are also.
Speaker A:So I really appreciate you sharing that, too.
Speaker A:I think that I want to talk about.
Speaker A:I want to go back a little bit because I want to go to Nigeria.
Speaker A:I want to talk about Nigeria a little bit.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:But I also want to figure out, like, the love and passion for poetry as your form of artistic expression.
Speaker A:Like, where did that come from?
Speaker A:And when did you.
Speaker A:When did.
Speaker A:When did that spark light up in you?
Speaker A:That, okay, maybe it's something that I want to do very professionally.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I feel like most artists, when you ask that question, have, like, this childhood dream kind of storyline.
Speaker B:And I don't really, you know, like, I was a kid who.
Speaker B:I'm the last of four girls.
Speaker B:We grew up in a largely, like, a very protective household.
Speaker B:And so we had a lot of books because it was like, you stay in the house, you read your books, that kind of vibe.
Speaker B:And so we.
Speaker B:I've always been immersed in reading and storytelling, and my father is a big love lover of the arts, and so he introduced us to classical music, early piano, all of those things.
Speaker B:So I think I was.
Speaker B:I had a pretty rich artistic life even as a child, but it wasn't something I considered doing.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I remember I had an uncle who was a playwright and, like, would put us in his plays.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I recognize that as a fun thing.
Speaker B:I don't know that I had a concept for, like, making a life out of that.
Speaker B:I started writing quite young, but not poetry.
Speaker B:My.
Speaker B:I tell the story often.
Speaker B:My mother was a working woman.
Speaker B:She traveled quite a bit, and whenever she would go out of town, she would give me a notebook and just say, okay, when I'm gone, just write down everything that happened.
Speaker B:If your sister pushed you, puts it there, all of the kind of things.
Speaker B:And I call that, like, my.
Speaker B:My first introduction to embellishing and storytelling and just writing nonsense, you know, So I have like.
Speaker B:Like, I have a timeline of being introduced to the arts and storytelling.
Speaker B:But I didn't grow up thinking, I want to be a poet.
Speaker B:I didn't even know what that was.
Speaker B:But I think we moved to Canada when I was 13.
Speaker B:And at teenage, that age is very pivotal for a young girl.
Speaker B:And I was just trying to figure out what I was and of course, started writing these, like, angsty, ragey teenage diatribes and poems.
Speaker B:That weren't going to really go anywhere.
Speaker B:But I had a teacher, both in junior high and in high school, who read a piece that I had written for a class project and made such a big deal out of it that I was like, what is happening?
Speaker B:I just written my normal.
Speaker B:Whatever I thought I was writing.
Speaker B:You know, it was like, okay, come share it in front of the class.
Speaker B:And, oh, let's use this for, you know.
Speaker B:You know, there was just all this, like, momentum around this one thing.
Speaker B:And I think that was my first inkling that the work that I created could extend beyond me.
Speaker B:Like, people could have a real reaction.
Speaker B:It wasn't just this internal figuring out.
Speaker B:It was like an outward expression.
Speaker B:But of course, I went on and studied engineering like a good girl would and worked as an engineer for many years.
Speaker B:Built roads throughout this city.
Speaker B:But I would still write on the side.
Speaker B:I started an open mic that went on for 10 years.
Speaker B:Every Tuesday, we would share our poems.
Speaker B:So it just felt like a kind of an outlet.
Speaker B:There was a lot of momentum around my work that I started to pick up that let me know that there was something there.
Speaker B:You know, I was being invited to things, invited to workshops, invited to perform places.
Speaker B:And I guess it felt like a zooming in on, like, I knew I love stories.
Speaker B:I love being in conversation with other people.
Speaker B:And then slowly, over time, my vision kind of narrowed, and I, like, locked in on, like, what part of this.
Speaker B:What style of this feels most me.
Speaker B:And once I locked in, it was like I couldn't unsee the thing.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:And I went on to blow up my life in service of that.
Speaker B:You know, I was like, yeah, if I'm not doing that, like, why would I be doing anything else?
Speaker B:And it made sense to me at the time.
Speaker B:Of course, now, retrospectively, I'm like, were you.
Speaker B:A little bit.
Speaker B:Are you okay?
Speaker B:But I think.
Speaker B:I think it worked out.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Regrets.
Speaker B:But it took me, I guess, in summary, it took me a long time to figure out what it was, But I just knew that there was something in the world of creation, in the world of storytelling and.
Speaker B:And community, that I wanted to be a part of.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that.
Speaker A:And that brought you to Nigeria.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where, you know, you did poetry, you put out an album, swim, that I actually really like.
Speaker A:And you also were an actor.
Speaker A:Do you.
Speaker A:Do you ever think about that?
Speaker A:That you were a lead actor on one of Nigeria's.
Speaker A:That was a popular show.
Speaker B:It was a popular time.
Speaker A:How did that happen?
Speaker B:So I'd watched the show before while I was in you know, it was a YouTube original or I don't know what the correct term is.
Speaker B:So I'd watched it here and I remember thinking, oh, that's like.
Speaker B:At the time it was like, really not like new and novel, like this kind of YouTube series.
Speaker B:And I just thought it was so cool.
Speaker B:But I.
Speaker B:After I resigned my engineering job, I was like, I'm going to move back to Lagos at this time.
Speaker B:I'd been back to Lagos a few times.
Speaker B:I'd go to Bogobiri and be like, oh, there's, you know.
Speaker B:You know, Bogobri was a moment, right?
Speaker B:And so I knew that there was like a community of artists that I wanted to be a part of.
Speaker B:I had no plan beyond that, just that I needed to be inside of where the happening was happening.
Speaker B:So I was like, I'll go back to Lagos and see what's up with family.
Speaker B:And I was really well taken care of so that I could like, just kind of figure out myself.
Speaker B:Anyway, in the process, I was invited, I think, through like, my Bogobiri appearances.
Speaker B:I had come to know Bem Yoda, who is a music, a musician whose work I love.
Speaker B:And Bem was do.
Speaker B:I just moved back to Lagos maybe two or three days before.
Speaker B:And Bem had said, oh, I'm doing this show.
Speaker B:It was at like, Ocean Basket or something, like a seafood restaurant.
Speaker B:I'm doing this show and it's going to be called Bem Yoda and Friends.
Speaker B:Will you come and perform a poem or two?
Speaker B:And I said, yeah, yeah, sure, sure.
Speaker B:And so I went and did this performance.
Speaker B:And I think while I was on the stage, Jade Osiberu and Lala Kin Doju came to the event because they were friends of Bem and saw me perform.
Speaker B:Or maybe I hadn't even performed yet.
Speaker B:I'm not sure.
Speaker B:But there was something about like, you know, there's an opening in this television series and you look like.
Speaker B:Seem like one of the characters.
Speaker B:Have you ever considered.
Speaker B:Lala came up and said, had you ever considered acting?
Speaker B:And again, because I say yes to everything, because I'm like, sure.
Speaker B:I was like, okay, yeah, I have considered acting.
Speaker B:Had not considered acting.
Speaker B:And so I got like audition slides in my email and just told to come to the Ndani office and audition for this thing.
Speaker B:I mean, I couldn't act, but I had been memorizing and performing poetry for years at this point.
Speaker B:So I'm like, in the very least, I will know my lines inside my body and then I'll show up and just make it do what it do.
Speaker B:And so I arrived there and there was like, you know, a bunch of people auditioning who I come to find out had already.
Speaker B:There was like a pre audition that had happened, but I kind of like jumped a step or something.
Speaker B:And so I'm feeling really intimidated because I'm seeing like Nigerian actors are in the room.
Speaker B:And me, I'm just there on vibes.
Speaker B:I don't even, because I just.
Speaker B:I didn't have any.
Speaker B:There was no stakes.
Speaker B:The stakes were zero.
Speaker B:You know, I was happy to go home and say, this was a funny thing that happened to me.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But I auditioned and the audition, I didn't know at the time, but obviously the audition went well.
Speaker B:And I think one of the things that may have solidified things, maybe even more, was that Somkele came to do like a chemistry test.
Speaker B:Somkele is my best friend.
Speaker B:On Giddy up, the show, I played a character called Eki and we had like went back and forth with some lines and something that was so generous in that scene making with me.
Speaker B:And it just felt so natural and just like, oh, yeah, this is my girl.
Speaker B:I've known her, I just met her and now she's a lifelong friend, you know, that kind of thing.
Speaker B:So there's.
Speaker B:I think there was just a series of happy coincidences that made that possible.
Speaker B:Anyways, I auditioned, I went home and faced my life, and then a few weeks later I got the job and then realized, oh, now you actually have to act on a television series with episodes and chunks of script and things to say and say it convincingly.
Speaker B:And I would say the team was incredibly generous to me because everybody was aware that I had no idea what I was doing.
Speaker B:But I think I had the opportunity to work along with like seasoned directors and producers and other actors, and they carried me, quite frankly.
Speaker B:It was a joyful experience.
Speaker B:I learned a lot and I think it opened up for me a new portal even of people who started following my poetry, because then my poetry was introduced into the show and suddenly I had a new audience of people who didn't know I was a poet who now did.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I think that was like a real, like, real engine forward for the rest of the things I did after Giddy up, which, yeah, it was great.
Speaker B:A moment in time.
Speaker A:A moment in time.
Speaker A:And I really love that.
Speaker A:And I think that some things happen in our lives to spark something new.
Speaker A:You know, it's just like you said, an engine, a catalyst for something.
Speaker A:Maybe Giddy up.
Speaker A:That was what it was for you at the time, I'm going to bring it back to Sis, which is your third spoken word album, and I'm going to read something that you wrote on Instagram about the album and you said, I offered this as an invitation to see the sacred bond of sisterhood as its own worthy love story.
Speaker A:Imperfect, wild and beautiful.
Speaker A:I hope this work meets you exactly where you are.
Speaker A:I pray.
Speaker A:Inspires you to reach out your hands to draw near or let go as needed.
Speaker A:It is rooted in my belief in art, as powerful as a powerful location for healing.
Speaker A:I think that is the most beautiful summary I have seen about an album.
Speaker A:And I'm not female, but I grew up with a lot of, you know, women.
Speaker A:I have.
Speaker A:I grew up.
Speaker A:I have mostly sisters.
Speaker A:And I always.
Speaker A:When I was even, like, younger, I would tell my sisters that they were my forever friends, right?
Speaker A:And I found it very moving.
Speaker A:And I love the project.
Speaker A:I love Mercy.
Speaker A:I love Amen.
Speaker A:But, yeah, but I want to just know what is the creative person.
Speaker A:What was the creative process for that album like for you?
Speaker B:Yo, I think even before I did the album, when I said I just had, like, I was like, oh.
Speaker B:I think my next album is about sisterhood, about friendship, like, platonic love.
Speaker B:And I remember, like, a lot of the conversations I would have be like, why are you always writing about women?
Speaker B:Like, are you not tired?
Speaker B:And I feel like there's endless places to go.
Speaker B:The reason this was such a topical and urgent thing for me is, is because of my own experience of sisterhood.
Speaker B:For better, for worse, right?
Speaker B:So I've been.
Speaker B:I've been blessed, elevated, empowered, loved in my relationships with women in my sisterhoods.
Speaker B:But also I've been wounded and wounded and been heartbroken.
Speaker B:Like, all of that exists in that space.
Speaker B:So for me, the process of making the album was like exploration and wayfinding.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:I didn't come into it thinking this is exactly.
Speaker B:I didn't.
Speaker B:I know the expectation is probably like, a Rara sisterhood album.
Speaker B:Everything is fantastic, but there's quite some, like, there's some painful work on the album.
Speaker B:And so it was important for me to try to tell the truth of it.
Speaker B:To try to tell the truth of even sisterhood bonds by blood and how they break down.
Speaker B:To try to tell the truth of how, like, a falling out with a friend feels as painful as any romantic heartbreak.
Speaker B:To try to tell the truth about where I have fallen short.
Speaker B:And so it was just like I was like, I was.
Speaker B:I was looking at all of my relationships in that way and just like, pulling the threads and trying to figure out what felt most honest to say.
Speaker B:Because every time, like, I mean, it would have been easy enough to just say, you know, women, you lift me up.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker B:Which is true.
Speaker B:But what is more true is that people have muddy and sticky and complicated relationships with each other, sisterhood or not.
Speaker B:There's this sense in which the closer you get, the deeper you get, the more potential for pain and suffering, you know, because it's like you're in it, like you're enmeshed, right?
Speaker B:And so I just started writing these poems one after the other.
Speaker B:I started first with my own relationship with my sister by blood and.
Speaker B:And how tangled and messy that has been.
Speaker B:And use that as kind of the location for what informs the way in which I move in friendships.
Speaker B:And then just kind of like started plucking through and worked really closely with Melafreek.
Speaker B: th me in Lagos in December of: Speaker B:Most like swim and sis is all Melafique.
Speaker B:The voice is Rewoir mainly, but also Yaa.
Speaker B:And they're musicians who are also friends and family.
Speaker B:We have a really, really fantastic working relationships.
Speaker B:I get in the studio with Enoch, who produced, engineered, composed.
Speaker B:He did all the things.
Speaker B:Anything you hear is him.
Speaker B:And I just say to him, these are the poems.
Speaker B:I start sharing the poems, and he goes off and does his own and is actually listening to the things that I'm saying and responding to them.
Speaker B:I feel like that cohesion in music and poetry is so important.
Speaker B:It's not just like there's a poem, you just slap an instrumental together.
Speaker B:There's like some real responsive bits of music in there, which I think Enoch does masterfully.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, once the text is written, there's like a rough recording.
Speaker B:He makes the music.
Speaker B:I go back and continue to edit and polish.
Speaker B:And then we find a midpoint and start, like, deciding what to keep, what stays, what goes, what matters, what doesn't, maybe what feels like it's for the next thing.
Speaker B:And then before you know it, there's an album and.
Speaker B:And then you have to hope that it is received in the energy that it was created, that it matters to people.
Speaker B:But that part I can't control, you know, but the process to me is always is like part meditation, part prayer, part hopes and dreams.
Speaker B:I'm just trying to figure it out, like on the page, you know, But.
Speaker A:And it does matter, you know, it matters to people, to the people who engage people who come to your shows and hear music and the poetry live and how they're able to be cohesive.
Speaker A:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker A:Like you said, it's not like you're slapping music on a poem.
Speaker A:It's like they were made together.
Speaker A:They were made to be together.
Speaker A:And anybody that comes.
Speaker A:And even.
Speaker A:Even just seeing you, I've never.
Speaker A:Which is really sad that I've seen you perform many times.
Speaker A:And I've never been to a Titi Lockwood show, which I'm really, like, bummed about, because every time is that there was always something for.
Speaker A:There was always a reason why I wasn't.
Speaker A:I wasn't available to attend.
Speaker A:But it always looks so very well intentioned, from, like, the staging to the set to the lighting, to just.
Speaker A:Everything just looks very, very intentional.
Speaker A:So, yeah, your work really does matter to.
Speaker B:I'm glad to hear that you can be intentional because I spend an unnatural amount of time ruminating over the details to the point of stress.
Speaker B:But I'm glad.
Speaker B:I'm glad that it translates.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, it does really translate.
Speaker A:And the clips that I see online, you know, are just breathtaking.
Speaker A:And I'm sure the folks who are in the room, too.
Speaker A:I know a couple of people who have been to some of the shows in Lagos, and they're like, wow, it was such an experience, you know, And I feel like.
Speaker A:I feel like there.
Speaker A:There has to be room, and I want.
Speaker A:I want to hear your thoughts on this.
Speaker A:I feel like there has to be room for the expansiveness of what poetry can be.
Speaker A:Not necessarily so that I can be mainstream.
Speaker A:You know, I don't think the goal is.
Speaker A:And it could be right to be mainstream, and nothing is wrong with that either.
Speaker A:But I think that there has to be room for us to be able to move past what the world sees as what preach is supposed to look like and sound like, or what spoken words should look like and sound like.
Speaker A:Black people.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:There's a way that people.
Speaker A:We want spoken word to be or not be.
Speaker A:But what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker A:How can we be more expansive with how.
Speaker A:How we engage with poetry, how we make poetry and how we consume it in itself?
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I spent a lot of time, like, wanting to be legitimized by, like, I don't know, the literary world in ways that I just never was.
Speaker B:Like, I've just never made sense in that one particular way.
Speaker B:And I found that once I removed my hand and just started doing the things that were meaningful and fun and enjoyable to me, I didn't have to worry as much about what the expectations were I was able to kind of build my own tribe, and the tribe trusts and comes with me.
Speaker B:And at some point, you have to decide as an artist that that is enough.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I think that I'm a poet who is less preoccupied by.
Speaker B:By the rules and the rulemaking and more preoccupied by, does this work actually connect with people?
Speaker B:Even when I was a student at school and I was listening to poems I didn't understand, I often would think, like, if I.
Speaker B:The reader, if I don't get it, then what's, you know, like.
Speaker B:For me, it matters that the audiences understand the work, that it feels meaningful to them.
Speaker B:And the work of being accessible or the work of being clear and oftentimes simplistic is also still work.
Speaker B:You know, I think that in all art making, we owe it to artists to allow them to try things.
Speaker B:You know, this opera that was nominated for the Dora, I remember a friend of mine came to watch it and was like, I'm not sure.
Speaker B:You know, like, I didn't.
Speaker B:It didn't feel like you.
Speaker B:And we had a really, really beautiful conversation about the ability to try things.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:And what I'm always searching for is this ability as an artist, as a poet, as a maker of things, to touch my hand to something and let it even be bad, you know, like, let it not be good.
Speaker B:But I think what kills artists is this, like, very rigid box of.
Speaker B:Of like, what you can or cannot do.
Speaker B:But I reserve the right to fail publicly.
Speaker B:I reserve the right to.
Speaker B:For you to say, oh, yeah, I saw her attempt some kind of strange opera thing.
Speaker B:It wasn't good.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:But it happened.
Speaker B:It is a thing that happened.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:And so I just.
Speaker B:As audiences, as people who enjoy art, I think we owe it to art makers to let them try, you know, for an artist to release an album.
Speaker B:And you say, ah, I didn't like it.
Speaker B:It wasn't for me.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Like, just the.
Speaker B:I think what fuels us is this ability to just touch your hand to a thing and this iterative process of getting better or going in a different direction to do a thing without your being beholden to an audience that is, like, ready to burn you at the stake because it wasn't what they expected from you.
Speaker B:It doesn't sound, you know, like all of the ways that we measure ourselves.
Speaker B:I think that is what kills art, is why some artists will release one killer album, and then, you know, it's like the fear of making a second because it's not as good.
Speaker B:People loved Swim, but I had to make Cis for better, for worse.
Speaker B:I had to make, I have to make another thing.
Speaker B:And yeah, I think just more generosity at the level of being able to watch people be in the arena do it messily, do it in a way that is maybe a little bit cringe and, and sticking with them till the next thing you know, I try to be less.
Speaker B:Like I'm always inside of the cringe and even when I'm promoting my work and making, I'm just like, but I'm going to do it anyway, you know, like let the cringe be cringing and let me continue to press on because I've decided that this is what I'm here to do and none of our years are guaranteed and I'm not going to waste much more of it like worrying about who thinks it's poetry or not, who thinks it's good enough or not, who thinks it's award winning or not.
Speaker B:Like, who cares?
Speaker A:That's real.
Speaker A:I feel like you kind of like ministered to me.
Speaker A:I gotta pass the play when you said be in the cringe.
Speaker A:And I feel like personally I feel like that's what I'm navigating right now.
Speaker A:I think that being it, I feel like I was a, as a journalist, someone who was a journalist, you know, for most of my life and now having to making content online, it's cringy and I don't think folks understand how it feels to upload a video of yourself talking to your, your camera.
Speaker A:And so I'm like, God Harry, you know, if you could be in a proper news station doing your thing.
Speaker A:But you saying be in the cringe is that is where the bust of creative creativity comes from.
Speaker A:So I really appreciate you, Shar.
Speaker A:That, that, that, that is the word.
Speaker A:I will pass the plates.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:You're doing the thing.
Speaker B:And like even as an observer of that, me like personally, I love watching people try things.
Speaker B:I'm always rooting for people when they're trying things.
Speaker B:I'm just like, yeah, I see you.
Speaker B:Like I see the thing that you're making in real time.
Speaker B:I think, yes, we're hyper connected and whatever but like it's a real privilege that we get to watch people make things in real time.
Speaker B:Like it's such a blessing to be like, oh yes, I remember the first video you uploaded.
Speaker B:Look at the 10th video or the 20th.
Speaker B:Like there's a sense in which it feels like a real honor to watch people grow and I think we should celebrate that more.
Speaker A:That's real.
Speaker A:I have a question about the work I don't know if that is your intention sometimes, but I feel like sometimes, you know, people can label you like an advocate or an activist because of certain themes in your work.
Speaker A:Is that a label that you hold onto?
Speaker A:Is that label that you.
Speaker A:You want, or are you just creating from a.
Speaker A:And it just happens to fall along those themes?
Speaker A:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Yes and no.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm not opposed to where my work lands.
Speaker B:I think if you.
Speaker B:If you make work that is reflective of your values, then it is natural for it to feel like advocating because you're talking about things that matter to you and to other people.
Speaker B:And so I guess my preoccupation is that, like, let my work reflect my values, let my work reflect my views of the world, that my work reflects the world I want to live in, and then let people receive that how it lands for them.
Speaker B:Did I come into this work wanting to be like, with that label in mind?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:But naturally, if I make work that feels that way, then, sure, I'll take it, but it's not.
Speaker B:I'm an imperfect.
Speaker B:I always thought, like, I'm an imperfect person learning in real time and making imperfect decisions, and would want some grace and mercy in that regard, because I also have seen what we do to people who are advocates for anything.
Speaker B:I see how quickly they fall from grace and shattered by the draw.
Speaker B:But I think I'm open to learning.
Speaker B:I'm like.
Speaker B:My eyes are always open, and I'm hopeful that people feel like my work is a safe place and can.
Speaker B:Can see that reflected back to them.
Speaker A:You know, some awesome.
Speaker A:And I remember you had a book out, a collection of poems.
Speaker A:So, you know, I know folks are like, God, she's done acted.
Speaker A:She's done an album.
Speaker A:She has a book out.
Speaker A:Yes, there is.
Speaker A:This is How We Disappear, which I also absolutely loved.
Speaker A:I have a copy of that.
Speaker A:Are we getting.
Speaker A:Are we gearing up another collection of poems, like an anthology?
Speaker A:Is that in works, or is that so much pressure?
Speaker B:I think I have publish, publishing, ptsd.
Speaker B:I think that, like, that is in an arena that I have not quite gotten a grasp on.
Speaker B:This Is How We Disappear came as a surprise to a lot of people who had followed my work over the years because it's quite a departure from.
Speaker B:If you listen to Swim and read this Is How We Disappear, they could be two different people, subject matter, style, et cetera.
Speaker B:Again, a time of experimentation and trying to, like, figure out what, like, a page version of my work would look like.
Speaker B:There Is like, I got into a residency in Scotland a couple of years ago and wrote the very shabby first draft of a novel that I intend to finish.
Speaker B:And, yes, absolutely.
Speaker B:Another collection.
Speaker B:I think I'm, just, to put it plainly, afraid, I think a part of me.
Speaker B:I'll put it this way.
Speaker B:I'm very comfortable in performance spaces because I call performance the final edit.
Speaker B:Performance is transient and forgiving in that each time I perform a poem, I can change a little bit of it in real time, and the audience is there with me.
Speaker B:And when it's finished, it's finished.
Speaker B:Unless, of course, I make a video or whatever.
Speaker B:But in text, it feels more rigid and it feels more locked in place in a way that I haven't quite.
Speaker B:That I haven't quite become as comfortable with as I would like.
Speaker B:And so I think that's why it's slower.
Speaker B:Like, there's slower output on the print side of things for my work, because I think the perfectionist tendency in me wants whatever I lock down on the page eternally to be like, you know, I'm not quite as forgiving of myself as I am in performance when I don't get it right.
Speaker B:And then I can edit it and then I can change it the next time, you know, So I guess to speak truthfully and not give you a canned response is that for me, that is, like, my largest pain point that I'm still trying to navigate.
Speaker B:I know that people desire my work in print so they can hold it in more, like, tangible ways.
Speaker B:Ways.
Speaker B:And I'm just trying to figure out a way that feels good for me.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's real.
Speaker A:And that's a journey only you can figure out.
Speaker A:You know, regardless of what, you know, the audience wants, you know, you have to also be comfortable with the art that you're putting out to, you know, I respect that.
Speaker A:Thank you for answering that.
Speaker A:I'm going to make it get things a little bit lighter, a little bit.
Speaker A:I'm going to do, like, a little fun.
Speaker A:A little fun and trivia stuff.
Speaker A:What are, like, the top three songs on your playlist right now?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:My phone is beside me so I won't tell lies I'm listening to a lot of SA House.
Speaker B:I listen to it.
Speaker A:They do well.
Speaker A:They're doing really good.
Speaker B:There's a song, and I'm sure I'm pronouncing it, it's called Isaka.
Speaker B:It's by an artist called C I Z A.
Speaker B:So any anything in the SA House, I'm a piano universe is a bit of Me.
Speaker B:What else am I listening to?
Speaker B:Uncle Waffles.
Speaker B:New York Waffles.
Speaker A:I love Uncle Waffles.
Speaker B:Yes, of course.
Speaker B:There's a little slice of Moana, the soundtrack in here.
Speaker B:Okay, okay, I'm listening to it.
Speaker A:But is it like Moana, the first one or the second one?
Speaker B:Very specific.
Speaker A:Okay, okay.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I've had mixed reviews about the.
Speaker A:The soundtrack of the second one.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I mean, Lin Manuel.
Speaker B:I mean, come on.
Speaker B:There's like, I can feel the absence in the second one.
Speaker B:But I think with multiple lessons, as you do with children, I'm like, okay.
Speaker B:I think if we give this thing a chance, there's magic there too.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'd say a healthy mix of essay house, some gospel, too, as well.
Speaker B:But then, also, like, a lot of children's children that I feel like that.
Speaker A:Is on every parent I ask, they have, like, you know, some level of.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:When was this Disney film, The one.
Speaker A:It's not Coco.
Speaker A:Encanto, is it?
Speaker A:Encanto.
Speaker A:We don't talk about Bruno.
Speaker A:My niece.
Speaker A:Oh, my God, my niece rattles down with that song.
Speaker A:I was like, okay, okay.
Speaker A:I would talk about Bruno anymore, I.
Speaker B:Guess, but I just think he's such a brilliant.
Speaker B:And that, to me, is like, there are many artists that.
Speaker B:I'm like, North Star ish.
Speaker B:Like, you know, I think about Maya Angelou.
Speaker B:Like, we talk about Maya Angelou as though she was just a poet that was fixed in place.
Speaker B:But this woman did everything, you know, like, she did all kinds of things.
Speaker B:And so to me, lyrics to songs are poetry.
Speaker B:I'm like, yeah, I could do a children's album.
Speaker B:I think that would be cool.
Speaker B:Why not?
Speaker A:You had to hear first.
Speaker A:Working on the children's album.
Speaker A:Working on that, actually, you know, give her a call quickly.
Speaker B:Yeah, please.
Speaker B:You know, do the thing.
Speaker A:What is your.
Speaker A:What's your favorite thing?
Speaker A:To snack on a popcorn.
Speaker B:It's horrible for my teeth, but any kind of popcorn, I'm with it.
Speaker B:Salty sweets.
Speaker B:The mixture.
Speaker A:I like the mixture a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I can't have popcorn anywhere because I have braces now.
Speaker B:Oh, you do?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I have to.
Speaker B:I feel like I would still do it.
Speaker A:Oh, Lord, I miss.
Speaker A:I miss having popcorn.
Speaker A:I go to the movies.
Speaker A:It's just really nice to just keep popping it in.
Speaker A:But anyways, what's your favorite holiday destination?
Speaker B:That's a very good question.
Speaker B:Or like, a dream destination I return to over and over again.
Speaker B:But I think that there must be, like, I'm.
Speaker B:I need to be near the water.
Speaker B:There must be a beach.
Speaker B:There must be some kind of ocean view.
Speaker B:We got married in Santorini, and there was like, a kind of like.
Speaker B:Like, the scenes.
Speaker B:The scenes matter to me.
Speaker B:Somewhere warm.
Speaker B:Whatever fits into that category.
Speaker B:I'm down.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I'm here for that.
Speaker A:I'm here for that.
Speaker A:What are three.
Speaker A:What are the.
Speaker A:Who are the three artists you hope you can collaborate with?
Speaker B:And, like, this is, like, recording artists.
Speaker A:Not, like, it could be anything.
Speaker A:Could be visual recording, performing artists that you just really want to collaborate with.
Speaker A:Whatever medium they use is fine.
Speaker B:I have, like, a deep, unending love for Asha as a musician, and if I were, like, to.
Speaker B:I feel like it'd be really beautiful to do some kind of poetry and music merge with her.
Speaker B:I've always.
Speaker B:For better, for worse.
Speaker B:I'm a die hard Lauryn Hill fan.
Speaker B:I love Lauryn Hill.
Speaker B:And to me, like, a dreamscape collaboration would be to, like, do a Lauryn Hill track of some sort of.
Speaker B:Who else am I loving?
Speaker B:Yeva.
Speaker B:I think Yeva is, like, one of the greatest voices of our time.
Speaker B:I don't think Eva gets enough flowers for the things that she does with her voice.
Speaker B:Think.
Speaker B: I spent all of: Speaker B:And I think if I were to, like, collaborate with Ava, I would think, yeah, you've done it, girl.
Speaker B:You've done it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think those three.
Speaker A:That's pretty beautiful.
Speaker A:And I can see.
Speaker A:I can visualize that, you know, with.
Speaker A:With Lauren, with Yeba, and.
Speaker A:Who was the first one?
Speaker A:Asha.
Speaker A:Yeah, I can visualize all of them.
Speaker A:It's like, with being really.
Speaker B:Let's put it into the.
Speaker A:You know, from your lips to God's ears.
Speaker A:And finally, what is your guilty pleasure?
Speaker B:Probably very bad television, I think, because I spend so much of my time, like, inside of my head making, like, what I consider to be serious things and serious plans.
Speaker B:I, like.
Speaker B:I'm happy to, like, watch a Love island.
Speaker B:Things that are very low stakes, but I have high entertainment value.
Speaker B:I'm there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What do you want the legacy of your work and your art to be?
Speaker B:I try not to.
Speaker B:To be sincere.
Speaker B:I try not to think too deeply about legacy.
Speaker B:Like, I try to be, like, really rooted in what I'm making in real time.
Speaker B:I want for people who encounter my work to feel just a little bit less alone.
Speaker B:So if for nothing else, my work made you feel more seen, more heard, inspired you to do something more or different, like, just made you feel like you were not in a singular life experience.
Speaker B:I think I would have done well, okay.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Well, thank you.
Speaker A:I feel like your work inspires me.
Speaker A:It's very inspirational.
Speaker A:We really appreciate what you do and the art that you have and everything.
Speaker A:I am looking forward to more.
Speaker A:You know, whatever it is that you make, we're happy to support.
Speaker A:If you're ever in these United States, we will show up to whatever event or reading or whatever it is you're doing.
Speaker A:We'll be there.
Speaker B:And I have to.
Speaker B:As you're giving the flowers, I have to throw them back.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And just thank you for all the work that you do in all the ways that you're always supporting, always hyping, always like you're an ever present person on this artist journey, which can be incredibly lonely and, you know, all the things.
Speaker B:But, but thank you for, for being that sort of person.
Speaker B:I'm really excited for what you're creating in real time and excited to be able to, like, bear witness to it.
Speaker B:So keep leaning into the cringe.
Speaker B:We're in the cringe together.
Speaker B:It's okay.
Speaker B:We won't.
Speaker B:We'll be fine.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:I really appreciate that.
Speaker A:Yes, we are in the cringe together.
Speaker A:And if you made it to the end of this, thank you so much.
Speaker A:I really appreciate you sticking with us, listening to the podcast and just learning and being on this journey with us.
Speaker A:Until the next one.
Speaker A:Odejuma.
