Harry Waters Jr. on Art, Identity, and Power of Community
In one of our most heartfelt conversations yet, Harry speaks with influential artist and educator Harry Waters Jr., who reflects on a life shaped by purpose, vulnerability, and community. From his role in the cult classic, Back to the Future, to his groundbreaking work in theater and academia, Harry Waters Jr. shares stories that explore the intersections of Blackness, queerness, grief, joy, and the arts.
We discuss the impact of the AIDS crisis, the evolution of LGBTQ+ spaces, and the transformative power of storytelling to foster connection and care. With tenderness and humor, Harry Waters Jr. speaks about creating spaces like Harry’s Hangout, where Black queer men can gather, heal, and celebrate one another. This conversation serves as a moving tribute to resilience, intimacy, and the freedom that comes when we live our stories out loud.
Transcript
Hi, my name is Harry, and welcome to Odejuma.
Speaker A:Odejuma recognizes the magic of storytelling.
Speaker A:From personal experiences to stories of adventure, from tales of resilience to finding joy in the simple things, this story seeks to inspire, entertain, and educate because there is power in the stories of everyday people, and these stories are worth telling.
Speaker A:Hey, y'.
Speaker A:All, how's it going?
Speaker A:Welcome to another episode of odej.
Speaker A:And I am so excited about my guest today.
Speaker A:He is an icon and a legend, and I'm super honored to be speaking with him.
Speaker A:And we also shared.
Speaker A:We also share the same first name, too, so that's pretty cool.
Speaker A:So I'm here with Harry Waters, Jr. How are you, Harry?
Speaker B:Good morning, good afternoon, good day.
Speaker B:I'm really quite good.
Speaker B:Always happy to talk to another Harry.
Speaker A:I am very excited to get to speak to you also.
Speaker A:Also, because I just feel like you have such a light with you, like anybody that has met.
Speaker A:You can testify.
Speaker A:Can testify to the fact that you're just very warm and very open and very giving.
Speaker B:I just like that.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We sort of went through a process with some friends last, oh, fourth of July, so we were having an interdependence day, meaning, like, how are we taking care of each other?
Speaker B:And one of the things, exercise they asked everyone to do was to put on a piece of paper what you think your purpose is, and just write it down.
Speaker B:And then they gave us these strings, and we had to put that around our neck.
Speaker B:So then we were wearing the purpose that we put ourselves into for other people to see.
Speaker B:And mine was to help people become more human with each other.
Speaker B:Because to me, that's one of the challenges that we do have, is because we can be so disconnected from each other that we just need to get back to that basic one of actually seeing, feeling, breathing with each other as opposed to trying to beat each other or overcompensate or dismiss or snap off, you know, how do we actually see the other person and also let them see you, which is even harder.
Speaker A:You see, we just started.
Speaker A:I already dropped in the gems.
Speaker A:And I'm also very curious now, since we're already there.
Speaker A:Like, are there experiences that you've had in your life that has made you realize that this is what you think your purpose is right now?
Speaker B:I would have to say I'm really fortunate because it really came.
Speaker B:It really has come out that way in various.
Speaker B:I want to go in various times, decades, throughout the times that I've been on the planet.
Speaker B:And there was a wonderful moment that I always remember when I was in LA in.
Speaker B:So it had to be in the mid late 80s.
Speaker B:And I was asked.
Speaker B:I was doing a show.
Speaker B:I'm gonna drop a few names here now.
Speaker B:Okay, I'll just let that drop it all.
Speaker B:I was doing an episode of 227 with Marla Gibbs and Hal Williams and Regina King, who was a kid then.
Speaker B:And then Marla also had a school and she was inviting people to come teach a class.
Speaker B:And I had never officially created a class before, but when I did it, what I found is that I love teaching and I love encouraging especially young people to tell their story, because when they get the permission to tell their story, then all of a sudden it opens them up to be more creative and vulnerable with other people that are in that same group.
Speaker B:So it's that.
Speaker B:That was one of the things that let me know that, wow, I really like this.
Speaker B:And you can see a difference.
Speaker B:You can see a difference in the world that.
Speaker B:That really happens.
Speaker B:The other thing that I have to say that I witnessed, which made me decide side this.
Speaker B:This latest path that I was on, was I was doing a play in San Francisco and Los Angeles.
Speaker B:And it was about.
Speaker B:It was called the First Picture show.
Speaker B:And it was about the women who were filmmakers in the silent era, because there were quite a number of women who were filmmakers, but who didn't get notor noted, but they still had many, many films produced.
Speaker B:And the director of the play treated these women horribly.
Speaker B:And these are.
Speaker B:There was like eight older women that were doing this.
Speaker B:And I was one of, you know, sort of.
Speaker B:I was part of the cast.
Speaker B:I was the husband of one of them.
Speaker B:I played a black filmmaker like Michaux, who was one of the black filmmakers.
Speaker B:I was playing him in a nursing home.
Speaker B:But the way that he treated the director, treated these women just let me know that I wouldn't.
Speaker B:I don't ever want that to happen for anybody.
Speaker B: And then out of the blue, in: Speaker B:And it was there that I learned more about history of directing and different styles and things.
Speaker B:But it also allowed me to practice what I was trying to preach, which is, how do you respect everybody with where they are and then make them better?
Speaker B:Basically give them an opportunity to make something else happen for themselves.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:It was a discomfort situation that I got to make into a change situation for myself.
Speaker B:And I always sort of feel that way about directing when I'm direct, when I'm acting, it's a different Story, I'm a little crazy, but when I'm directing, I really like taking care of all the bodies, you know, not just the actors, but the crew and the designers and ultimately the audience.
Speaker B:How are we taking care of each other?
Speaker B:And that was a long way around for one of the answers, and I hope that's okay.
Speaker A:No, no, it is really okay.
Speaker A:And I think that we are in a.
Speaker A:In desperate need of care right now in the world.
Speaker A:Like, we need to care for each other.
Speaker A:And one of the things that, you know, when I was starting the podcast, I was thinking about was how when we understand each other a little bit better, we can care for each other a little bit better.
Speaker A:You know, when, you know, my story, we can.
Speaker A:We can build community from that because we are much more alike than we are different.
Speaker A:The world would like us to believe that we are, you know, different people because we have different experiences.
Speaker A:We were raised in different ways, but we are much more alike than, you know, we realize.
Speaker A:And so you talking about this.
Speaker B:So I must say I have a question for you about that, because we say that we're more alike than we are different.
Speaker B:So we're the only ones saying that.
Speaker B:Are the other people who consider us different, are they saying, how do we.
Speaker B:How does someone get that into their consciousness or conversation?
Speaker A:That is a good question.
Speaker A:And I feel like, because.
Speaker A:So a lot of my work initially started from.
Speaker A:I used to be a journalist.
Speaker A:I would say I'm still a journalist, right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:But I think that when I started doing media advocacy for, like, LGBT issues, I think one of the things that was very pertinent was, especially in a country like Nigeria that is very, you know, homophobic in courts, that has anti gay love and all these things, realizing the humanity and the folks who have a limited understanding of what sexuality and gender expansiveness is and reaching, I'm reaching to that, you know, And I think that is the thing that draws us in.
Speaker A:We are all in the world together, trying to make it, trying to pay our bills, trying to pay our rent, trying to just love on our families, love when our loved ones have a good time and just be.
Speaker A:And I think that that is something that connects us.
Speaker A:That's a very genuine human experience that we're all having.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I think that a lot of times we see each other as, you know, so different.
Speaker A:So I'm trying to find a word that is that we hit the nail on the head.
Speaker A:But, like, I think that the other folks who may not have that opinion of who we are, of me and you are blinded by the bigotry that they have been raised on.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so, yes, even though, you know, we are very much alike.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You have issues.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You get into petty arguments with your parents also, or you get into petty arguments with your friends, or, you know, you have a desire to see a much more a world that is, you know, you're proud of living for your children.
Speaker A:You know, just talking off the c. I like you have the same desire.
Speaker A:You might not feel that way because of.
Speaker A:You've been blinded by the bigotry that you were raised on.
Speaker A:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker A:I think that's why people don't really feel that way.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think sometimes we are.
Speaker B:We're not blinded by something specific.
Speaker B:We're blinded because we don't know.
Speaker B:It's like, if you don't know the other person, of course, you're.
Speaker B:Why would you.
Speaker B:What other opinion can you make except that I don't know them, so they must be different.
Speaker B:That also happens within our own communities.
Speaker B:It happens within, you know, a group of people that are coming together for the first time.
Speaker B:There becomes this judgment about how different they are across the room or how we want to be like this group that's over here or how important am I, or the other side of that is and what am I doing here?
Speaker B:So there's.
Speaker B:That to me, that's part of the human struggle, is finding the way of actually connecting across the room or across.
Speaker B:Across screens, you know, and then what.
Speaker B:What is the desire of those who want to make this change in the world, like the work that you're doing, as opposed to.
Speaker B:Those are like, in the world to sow dissension.
Speaker B:I mean, they want to just make it important that everything.
Speaker B:We are so far apart, we are so different.
Speaker B:We don't want to be like them.
Speaker B:You know, we're.
Speaker B:We're.
Speaker B:We're part of many thems that, you know, happens in cultures around the world.
Speaker B:Cultures around the world.
Speaker B:I just have a new.
Speaker B:One of my new good friends is from Burundi and cannot talk about their sexual identity.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:Not.
Speaker B:You can't even be mentioned because it will reflect on the family, on the neighborhood, on siblings, on them also, whether they're there or not.
Speaker B:So there's all those different identities that we have that we kind of wish there was a way of eliminating that judgment.
Speaker B:Because I think judgment is one of the things that really keeps us separated as well.
Speaker B:Keep.
Speaker B:Sometimes it keeps us separated from ourselves because you want.
Speaker B:Not.
Speaker B:Probably not you.
Speaker B:Because you're so well attended and culturally and socially and spiritually healthy that there's some of us who had to struggle through to get to be as wise and grounded as you are.
Speaker B:Perhaps it was all of your natural cultures and those of us that are trying to discover cultures here.
Speaker B:We don't have, yes, we sometimes don't have a system of how to, of how to pull judgments back because we have more of the practice of judging than the practices of how do I not judge.
Speaker B:I have been trying to be as conscious as I can with, especially during these times, these times even before the pandemic of how do you find a space for yourself to be in suspension about judgment as opposed to making the judgment, Then you have to pull it back, but your judgment's already there.
Speaker B:So this is the practice that I'm working on.
Speaker B:It's like, I don't want to go in with judgment.
Speaker B:I know I have biases.
Speaker B:I mean, it's something that you being a journalist also, you know that there is a bias that you bring.
Speaker B:Well, there's also a bias I bring into a room of people.
Speaker B:You know, I bring my own bias of like one thing.
Speaker B:Are they judging me?
Speaker B:Because, you know, I have three things.
Speaker B:I'm old, black and gay.
Speaker B:So it's like, okay, we're going to judge all those things.
Speaker B:Oh, and you're an artist.
Speaker B:Oh, we got to judge that too.
Speaker B:You know, there's, there's so many things I feel that they're judging me about.
Speaker B:As opposed to people like yourself that can just enter a room and be fully themselves.
Speaker B:No, Harry, I should say I've only witnessed that wonderful part of you when you can come in and you're so blow, you're so gloriously glowing when you enter a space that of course we're all going to want to be on your podcast because the energy that you're pulling is non judgmental, but it also makes us feel comfortable.
Speaker A:But thank you, Harry.
Speaker A:But I feel like we've all had to work through and get to where we are.
Speaker A:Especially as like you said, if you're black and you're gay, that is something that you're constantly working on and improving on.
Speaker A:This is really such, I mean, we just started and we went deep right in, you know, my questions be damned.
Speaker A:But I'm gonna pull us right questions.
Speaker B:Okay, sorry.
Speaker A:I, I, I'm just curious about, you know, where did it, where did it all begin for you?
Speaker A:This person who is artistic and who is, who has made a mark in the world, at what point did you realize that art, that the arts.
Speaker A:Are you there?
Speaker B:The arts are what I know.
Speaker B:And I've also known that I was going to be in the arts since I was in first grade and I was literally at the Lutheran School in Denver, Colorado, and we were doing this play and I was a milkweed.
Speaker B:I was one of the head milkweeds.
Speaker B:And I discovered that you can change how people think by what you say in front of them or whether it's on stage or if it's a minute or if it's a sermon, is that you can affect how people think.
Speaker B:And I went, oh my God.
Speaker B:So that's kind of like what performance is.
Speaker B:And so I knew that moment that I wanted to be an actor.
Speaker B:I also knew in that moment I had to keep it a secret because you can't be this young black kid that's from Denver, Colorado, who's gonna be an actor and your family works for the post office and your mom's a live at, stay at home mom who ends up working for the state of Colorado.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But it was not about any of that thing in our family line.
Speaker B:So you, you always have this, this reality of, especially in black families here is you have choices.
Speaker B:Post office, teacher, if you're really smart, lawyer or doctor or the service, you know, go, you know, enlist in the air force, Marines, army, whatever.
Speaker B:And I didn't want to do any of those.
Speaker B:And I knew it.
Speaker B:But I also, at the same time, this is why all my stuff is kind of locked together.
Speaker B:I knew that I liked boys and girls.
Speaker B:That's what I was doing at the time.
Speaker B:It's like I'm really, I was really clear.
Speaker B:I like boys and girls.
Speaker B:I can cry over this boy.
Speaker B:I can laugh at this girl.
Speaker B:I can laugh at this boy.
Speaker B:I can cry with that girl.
Speaker B:And it has to be a secret.
Speaker B:So I came up in a time when, which is different than the times that you, that the current, current youth are going through, where there was no space for telling your story out loud.
Speaker B:We could tell our stories to each other, but then it was also, who do you tell that story to?
Speaker B:So that, that, that was the beginning of my, I, I, and I look at it as, that's how I became a better actor because I learned how to perform.
Speaker B:I had to perform straight guy.
Speaker B:I had to perform straight kid in Lutheran church.
Speaker B:I had to perform straight black kid in working with my, with parents, sororities and fraternities, you know, so there was.
Speaker B:And, but also keeping all of my, you know, all the craziness back here in the back.
Speaker B:Oh, move it, move back.
Speaker B:Don't let that come up.
Speaker B:It's like, ah, no, no.
Speaker B:Until I learned how to let it come up in secret, you know, in other little places.
Speaker B:And then I could cover it up while it disappeared again.
Speaker B:And you all, all know what that means.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:How long, how long were you doing that for?
Speaker B:All of school up until I was in 10th grade and I didn't come out in 10th grade.
Speaker B:I was in a situation where I had access to lots of male bodies because I was in a boarding school.
Speaker B:I was one of the kids invited to an all boys boarding school.
Speaker B:And I don't know if I should tell it because they probably already know anyway.
Speaker B:I didn't feel uncomfortable about what I wanted, you know, just like, yeah, well it's here and certain people, you know, you could quote, play with and it was okay.
Speaker B:So, so that moving, all of that part.
Speaker B:And then when I went to college in New Jersey at Princeton, it was okay because I discovered a commute I didn't know.
Speaker B:I had no, I had, I had no references, I had no icons.
Speaker B:I was reading James Baldwin.
Speaker B:Yes, of course, you know, I'm reading poets and.
Speaker B:But there were no people, there were no bodies that I knew that were like mine.
Speaker B:I remember, I do remember once, as I'm even talking to you, going to a gay bar.
Speaker B:Oh my God.
Speaker B:My best friend who was straight and Chicano would say, okay, I'll go with you.
Speaker B:So we went there.
Speaker B:I was like stunned.
Speaker B:It was like so beautiful.
Speaker B:And there was somebody who was one of my brother's friends.
Speaker B:So I had to like, okay, we have to kind of stay here.
Speaker A:What year was that?
Speaker A:If you don't mind sharing.
Speaker B:So, God, it's like, you're just really going to date me, aren't you?
Speaker B:You really want to.
Speaker B:So it had to be.
Speaker B:So it had to be 69 or 70 because I went before because they in Denver, they had what you call three, two beers.
Speaker B:So so you could go to these curtain bars and they had the watered down beer so you could go there when you were 16 or 17.
Speaker B:And so me and my buddy Paul would go and drink three, two beer and then go to Bob's Big boy.
Speaker B:Pee on somebody's lawn.
Speaker B:Was also so the gay bar would allow you to come in.
Speaker B:You know, it wasn't, but you know, it was.
Speaker B:Oh my God, there's men dancing with you.
Speaker B:Oh my God.
Speaker B:Drag queens.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:Oh my God, I love this.
Speaker B:This is where I should meet.
Speaker B:But I had to Leave town.
Speaker B:So when I went to New Jersey, I was out, which was like, oh, wait, another, another, another.
Speaker B:Another memory is coming back.
Speaker B:This is what your show does, doesn't it kind of like peaks things?
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker B:Before I graduated, someone in my.
Speaker B:One of my mother's friends, family, somebody said they saw me at a gay bar.
Speaker B:And my father asked me, so.
Speaker B:So who leads when you dance?
Speaker B:But I go, no one.
Speaker B:You just dance.
Speaker B:So then, of course, that was like the.
Speaker B:The story was.
Speaker B:I was just.
Speaker B:It was just.
Speaker B:We were trying to hang out.
Speaker B:We didn't.
Speaker B:You know, it's not.
Speaker B:We're not doing anything.
Speaker B:We're just being there.
Speaker B:So I escaped there, went to Princeton, fell in love with this Puerto Rican boy, which let me know that it was possible to have love, because I did not know it was possible to be, like, in love and be queer, as we would say, in being gay.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:It was just.
Speaker B:It was a shock to me.
Speaker B:And so because it was the first time of being in love, I. I, of course, because I tend to overthink things because I was that little brainiac kid, is that I wanted to try and figure out why was I doing this.
Speaker B:And I just couldn't accept the other part of my brain just wanted to be with them, and I wanted to do everything that they did, no matter what it was.
Speaker B:Even if they changed their mind, it didn't matter.
Speaker B:I'll go change my mind as well.
Speaker B:And that was also a time when I learned about myself.
Speaker B:Because if you were to ask me what my values are, I would say whatever yours are, because I didn't trust that my values were any good, because look what I was doing.
Speaker B:Oh, my God, I'm a homosexual.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:So my values must be horrible.
Speaker B:So if I'm with you, you know, even if you.
Speaker B:It became later if you are gay, but if you're the person that I'm working with, if you're the person I'm living with, whatever your values are for the time, it's like, okay, I can do that.
Speaker B:I can take those in.
Speaker B:So I had years of not knowing what I valued, but I was really good at making myself believe the values that you had were the ones that I had.
Speaker B:And that became how I lived.
Speaker B:It didn't feel wrong because it was just what I was doing.
Speaker B:And I really wanted to figure out what was different, but I didn't know what was different because it was so important to be liked or to be in a group or something and be okay so that I wasn't I didn't know what me.
Speaker B:I didn't know what me was.
Speaker B:Which is why acting worked really well, because I can be another character.
Speaker B:I can totally take on somebody else.
Speaker B:And that felt really.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That was like, my relief and my release.
Speaker B:So the arts community was.
Speaker B:You got to.
Speaker B:You got to perform differently.
Speaker B:Got to perform differently.
Speaker B:Okay, that was around the world.
Speaker A:But would you say.
Speaker A:Would you say that?
Speaker A:Because I. I believe.
Speaker A:I want to believe that you found yourself some.
Speaker A:I'm gonna guess I'm like, that's next.
Speaker A:Was it.
Speaker A:Was it the arts that led you to finding yourself, even though you were using it to escape?
Speaker A:More or less.
Speaker B:Because we're talking about a time in.
Speaker B:In the 70s when there was what they now called the black arts movement.
Speaker B:But it was mainly.
Speaker B:There were a lot of black artists that were just making shit all over town.
Speaker B:They were doing plays in basements.
Speaker B:They were doing plays in theaters that didn't have any heat.
Speaker B:They were doing plays in dressing rooms, and there were writers that were just trying out stuff.
Speaker B:There were directors and.
Speaker B:And we all were supporting each other in these amazing ways.
Speaker B:So I got to be in a lot of creative environments, but no one said anything about my sexuality.
Speaker B:You know, they may have.
Speaker B:They may have said something when I wasn't there, but I definitely felt welcome because what I was doing all the time was.
Speaker B:I'm trying to offer what I have creatively to support you.
Speaker B:Like, if I'm working in a crew, if I'm on a crew helping to hang lights or make costumes, like, that's what I'm going to do.
Speaker B:I'm going to do that, make sure that it works.
Speaker B:I was a stage manager at one point because that helps run the show, and you're in charge of making sure that it doesn't fall apart.
Speaker B:And I really enjoyed that.
Speaker B:But I found I really loved acting because it allowed me to also experience other actors who were really good.
Speaker B:I looked at it every time I was acting.
Speaker B:I was looking to gain something from these other artists that I didn't have.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I didn't.
Speaker B:I never felt that I knew more or that I was a better actor.
Speaker B:It's like, I just.
Speaker B:I want to be a better actor, but it's because of the experiences that I'm having with other artists.
Speaker B:And the artists, especially at that time, were so willing to.
Speaker B:To ex.
Speaker B:To just give it to you.
Speaker B:I mean, that.
Speaker B:That was what their spirit was.
Speaker B:It's like, you wanted, come on in.
Speaker B:And we.
Speaker B:And it was.
Speaker B:And there was a spectrum and There was a gay spectrum that I also got to do a lot of performance and readings and creating pieces with.
Speaker B:That was a large part of my being able to be in New York.
Speaker B:And there was also a very large black gay community that I didn't have.
Speaker B:And all of a sudden it's like, oh, my God, this is great.
Speaker B:Look, there's like, black gay men everywhere.
Speaker B:Which is why I'm trying to do Harry's hangout again, the sidebar.
Speaker B:But what happened was, even during this time is all of a sudden, we became the family.
Speaker B:So it gave me more opportunity to find out what I wanted or who I was, I should say who I was now.
Speaker B:I was a. I was a bit of a skank.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was.
Speaker B:It was the 70s.
Speaker B:It was New York.
Speaker A:The 70s.
Speaker A:It was New York, baby.
Speaker B:But also the.
Speaker B:I was tell.
Speaker B:I was telling this to another young friend of mine.
Speaker B:It was before aids.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:So the world was working a lot differently, and we were.
Speaker B:We were different with each other.
Speaker B:There was no expectation that there would be marriage and kids and, you know, you could do every.
Speaker B:You know, you could walk wildly down the street with your rainbow colors.
Speaker B:It's like that was not an option, you know, and maybe not that really wanted to.
Speaker B:We just didn't because we created our own cocoon.
Speaker B:I mean, that sense.
Speaker B:I never got beat up.
Speaker B:I got called faggot, you know, quite often, but I never got beat up and stomped in the streets.
Speaker B:Well, also, I was in New York.
Speaker B:So you're keeping an awareness around yourself all the time.
Speaker B:You know, there.
Speaker B:There.
Speaker B:There are moments that.
Speaker B:And things that happen where I, you know, I should be at least sliced up or have holes in my body.
Speaker B:But I. I don't.
Speaker B:I don't at that time.
Speaker B:But then the other part of.
Speaker B:And I forgot what our topic was.
Speaker B:We were talking about here.
Speaker A:Right now, you're refining yourself right through the.
Speaker A:Through the arts, but now you're integrated.
Speaker A:You've been talking about what it was like to be gay in New York before aids, before aids.
Speaker B:But also most of the people I was with were people that were dancers or singers or writers.
Speaker B:And so that was.
Speaker B:That was.
Speaker B:That was the pot that we were in.
Speaker B:It wasn't people that were working, you know, in the post office.
Speaker B:It wasn't people that had regular jobs.
Speaker B:It was all of us that were trying to have a career.
Speaker B:You know, we were really trying to make a career in the arts.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I think the more that we were in it together, it just reinforced our desires to work harder One of the things that I was so appreciative of in our time is that we would also do things to take care of each other, like make food, you know, like help people pay the rent if that's what needed to happen.
Speaker B:Like hook people up.
Speaker B:That's what needed to happen.
Speaker B:All of those things were like just a part of what we did.
Speaker B:Did.
Speaker B:There was many, many, I don't say many, but quite a number of parties that we had that were raising money for somebody or we just needed to have a party because things were crazy.
Speaker B:You make up lots of food, you invite people over.
Speaker B:There was usually a little weed, you know, that was there, and, and there was usually somebody in the back room that's, you know, doing their thing and then they come out and maybe a couple other people go in the back.
Speaker B:Because we created a kind of apartment that was big enough, obviously you could afford a big apartment in New York back then that, that everybody was welcome to come with whatever they wanted to come with, you know, and nobody.
Speaker B:And if anybody had any questions, well, then I guess you're going to leave because everybody else is here because they want to be here.
Speaker B:And that let me feel a lot better because I was helping or being a part of this community of people and allowed us, allowed us to be happy.
Speaker B:You know, that I think about it, it's like that's one of the ways we were holding on to our happiness because I was, I was really lucky.
Speaker B:You know, I got lots of work.
Speaker B:I. I got to work as an actor doing a lot of commercials.
Speaker B:So I made good enough money in commercials that I was able to help out lots of my folks.
Speaker B:And I'm, you know, we'll never forget that as a part of it.
Speaker B:And then there was a switch to another time in the world, I have to say.
Speaker B:I'll put it, I'll put it like that.
Speaker B:Yeah, the arts were where were like the driving force.
Speaker A:Now I have a curiosity about what, what, what it was like when, you know, the virus was first discovered during the eighth crisis, and how that shift affected not just the community, but you.
Speaker A:Because you just described a community of people who loved on each other, who were building a very healthy communal space in big new, big city New York.
Speaker A:So what was that shift like and how did that affect you?
Speaker B:Well, it hit in 79, especially big in the black gay theater community because all of a sudden a lot of the dancers were getting sick and they were getting these lesions.
Speaker B:Well, this is a little, a little later, but at the beginning of it is that someone that you had sex with.
Speaker B:A month later, they were gone.
Speaker B:And nobody knew what it was at the time.
Speaker B:They were calling it gerd, you know, the gay.
Speaker B:The gay.
Speaker B:The gay disease.
Speaker B:But what was also happening is that the white boys had the resources because they had money, but the black.
Speaker B:The black folks didn't have any money.
Speaker B:So we had each other.
Speaker B:So we had to figure out how to take care of each other.
Speaker B:Also, because most of us were distant from our families.
Speaker B:Because part of the reason that you were here is because you got to get out of there, because it didn't feel safe or you didn't feel wanted, whatever.
Speaker B:But when people began to get sick, like, it went so fast that we found ourselves.
Speaker B:You were always either in a hospital or you're taking care of somebody, or you're at a memorial.
Speaker B:And it became almost debilitating.
Speaker B:And also because I have one of those syndromes that they call them, I have, you know, survivor's guilt.
Speaker B:Because, yes, I know I had sex with all of these people at some point, but I never got.
Speaker B:I was never HIV positive forever.
Speaker B:And so I kept.
Speaker B:It was one of those.
Speaker B:I kept waiting because, you know, I slept with them.
Speaker B:I know I slept with him, and now they're gone.
Speaker B:There were people years later that then developed it, so there were different layers of it.
Speaker B:And I had a lover at the time, and miles.
Speaker B:And so it wasn't necessarily during the whole AIDS epidemic, because we didn't know it was an epidemic.
Speaker B:We just knew it was killing people.
Speaker B:You know, it was just like it was killing people in New York City and in San Francisco.
Speaker B:So that was what.
Speaker B:Like this, just about these two communities.
Speaker B:And then I moved to la, and then there were friends that I had there that were suddenly sick in LA too.
Speaker B:So there was this kind of fear about how you had to move in the world because if you acted too gay, people were not going to hire you because they figured you were.
Speaker B:You have aids.
Speaker B:So it was that intense about.
Speaker B:Especially in the business, in the theater world, which is mostly, you know, gay men, lesbians run, lesbians are building the shit.
Speaker B:But people that were hiring, like, for TV and film, even commercials, they were watching how you held yourself, how you spoke.
Speaker B:And so you would have to.
Speaker B:For me, it was like I found my way so that I could keep working, because I created a character which was the all American black guy next door, you know, that was, I can be your friend, but I wasn't intimidating and I wasn't too flamboyant, you know, so there's there's another energy that was happening with a lot of people that were really brilliant, but also, even as actors, not that they were always gay act.
Speaker B:You know, they wouldn't always play gay characters, but they were good actors that they were not getting hired because somebody heard or they.
Speaker B:They acted too gay.
Speaker B:So maybe they've got aids.
Speaker B:So they became this really intense once again.
Speaker B:It was like we had to go back underground again almost in order to be free with ourselves.
Speaker B:But it's like, how free can I be in the world?
Speaker B:Because everybody's gonna break you down now because you've got this disease.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:What was what.
Speaker B:I think what was considerably debilitating is that it wasn't just one or two or three years.
Speaker B:It was over a period of like 15 years of people.
Speaker B:I mean, I have several friends who, who are HIV positive survivors who've been positive for over 20 years.
Speaker B:And they're also the exception to the rule because whatever drugs they did or however their metabolism took it in was something that allowed them to still be here.
Speaker B:We usually don't like to talk about it, and I think that we should.
Speaker B:But then when we talk about it, what does it mean?
Speaker B:I mean, I have a.
Speaker B:My.
Speaker B:My young friend as well, this called him, was telling me all of the access to different kinds of drugs and, you know, things that inhibitors and things that you all can take these days so that whether you had an encounter or not, you know, here's some things that can be put into your system.
Speaker B:We had none of those.
Speaker B:There was.
Speaker B:There.
Speaker B:There was no prep.
Speaker B:There were no other kinds of.
Speaker B:We did not even use condoms back then.
Speaker B:It just wasn't a part of how we lived in the world.
Speaker B:So with us having to learn to use condoms in the 80s was like, oh my God, we're having to rework how we even interact with each other.
Speaker B:And now, of course, your generation, the recent generations, that of course is just a part of how you live, you know, really was.
Speaker B:And for.
Speaker B:For us, it.
Speaker B:For us, it was different.
Speaker B:Getting through with your.
Speaker B:With your heartaches and your breakdowns because certain people you didn't expect were suddenly gone was really hard for a long time.
Speaker B:I discovered for myself one of the things that I lived with is I never.
Speaker B:I was afraid to grieve because I was taking care of other people that were grieving.
Speaker B:So I never allowed myself.
Speaker B:It's like I can't allow myself to.
Speaker B:Because I had to take care of these.
Speaker B:These other people.
Speaker A:So in the middle of going through what you were going through, did you have a chance to grieve because you said you were.
Speaker A:Have you, have you as that, has that happened?
Speaker A:Do you think even now as you're older there's.
Speaker B:Thank you for asking.
Speaker B:Because it does make me have to think about it.
Speaker B:And part of me knows the answer is I'm not going to allow myself to.
Speaker B:Because what I'm afraid of is if I start letting all the grief come, it won't stop.
Speaker B:And I mean, I know it's just my head thinking about it going like if start grieving, you're not going to be able to come back from it.
Speaker B:People come back from grief.
Speaker B:I help many people come back from grief.
Speaker B:But I'm, I'm.
Speaker B:I've just taught myself.
Speaker B:It is an interesting thing where I've told myself that if I go all the way to grieving, I'm not going to come back the same person, which may be okay, but I, I'm so resistant to it because I need to be there for other people when they're grieving.
Speaker B:And I would rather, I'd rather.
Speaker B:I'm always going to push for joy, I'm always going to push for happiness.
Speaker B:I'm always going to push for understanding and non judgmental stuff.
Speaker B:But, but letting myself immerse in grief is scary.
Speaker B:I did a.
Speaker B:There was a person at the Juneteenth festival this year that she made a booth that's about grief, grieving and grief.
Speaker B:And so you went in and it was just some things hanging, some things to think about, little prompt questions, some food tastings of things that you think about how it does to your body.
Speaker B:And that's when I actually was given the opportunity to identify that I'm afraid of grief.
Speaker B:You know, I, I think grief is an important part of life, you know, it is.
Speaker B:Things change, you grieve for them.
Speaker B:And I haven't, you know, or I mean there are many times, many things that should be grieving, but I, I'm afraid to.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:And I, I'm sure it's probably some therapy, some therapy thing might, might happen.
Speaker B:You know, it's.
Speaker B:I don't know, a little late for therapy.
Speaker B:It's too late.
Speaker B:You're done.
Speaker A:You're never too late for therapy.
Speaker B:Never too late.
Speaker A:I know, it's amazing therapy.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've done a lot and there's probably a lot more to do.
Speaker B:I think I'm going to wait till next year.
Speaker B:I'm going to get through this year now and I'm sure that they'll.
Speaker B:Because there's going to be situations that I'm currently encountering that I haven't, you know, the therapeutically examined.
Speaker B:You know, why I do certain things, why I think about some things, because what I want to do is, as I, I call it.
Speaker B:This is what happens now is that I can just, I can just choose to be blonde.
Speaker B:I'm gonna be blonde.
Speaker B:Fine.
Speaker B:I don't care.
Speaker B:I'll just.
Speaker B:Doesn't bother me.
Speaker B:It doesn't bother me.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:It's all right.
Speaker B:I'm not gonna think about it, and then something else will happen.
Speaker B:So if I, if I pull myself back from it, then I don't, I haven't invested any energy in trying to make it real in my consciousness.
Speaker B:You know, I can keep it, I can keep it part of mentalized.
Speaker B:And I think that's something that we, we don't want to do as artists.
Speaker B:Emotionally, I mean, emotionally, I think I'm just extremely available.
Speaker B:I'm, like, available all the time, sometimes to the extreme.
Speaker B:So maybe that's where I work it all out.
Speaker B:But so far, but so far as specific emotional tracks is, I, I'm, I'm very aware of.
Speaker B:I don't want to go there.
Speaker B:So I can act like I know what it's like to go there.
Speaker B:So that you get the impression that I'm actually doing that thing.
Speaker B:Because is it, is it good enough?
Speaker B:Because I'm in.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:Some people have said I'm kind of intense.
Speaker B:You know, I, I, I'll own my intensity.
Speaker B:And sometimes that just takes over for any sort of honest offering that I might, that I should probably be giving, but I, I find a way to make it safe for me.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's, I almost worried.
Speaker A:Are you worried you'll be able to come back if you get, if you let yourself go there?
Speaker B:If I go.
Speaker B:And it's something that.
Speaker B:It almost happened one time at Harry's Hangout when we were checking in one of those days, and I did not know that Justin Frank had died.
Speaker B:Who was one of the people that a lot of people knew and I knew, knew him from when I first came here when I was in Madison, and I didn't know that he had died and his mother found him in.
Speaker B:All of a sudden, we're talking about that as we're going around the room, and I felt myself start to swell up and was like, okay, I can't do this now because, you know, I'm holding space here with, with this, this community.
Speaker B:So I, I, I never got back to actually experiencing it.
Speaker B:This is so.
Speaker B:Are you Going to bill me now for what?
Speaker B:The therapy.
Speaker A:I'm not trying to bill you.
Speaker A:I'm not trying to bill you.
Speaker A:And this has been the most organic episode I've ever done.
Speaker A:I've barely had to use any of my questions.
Speaker A:But I also want to.
Speaker A:I really want to give you the space to say what is pressing in the moment and not feel like you have to rush it or it has to be a polished answer or you have to, you know, because I know that there are people who are going to listen to this and are going to resonate very deeply.
Speaker A:So I really want you to be able to connect as much as you can with those folks and with me.
Speaker A:So I feel like I'm learning so much about you every time I see you.
Speaker A:It's always joy, laughter, like you said.
Speaker A:You're always holding space.
Speaker A:You're always bringing people together, creating a community for people.
Speaker A:It's like a intergenerational thing.
Speaker A:Like I said at the last Harry's Hangout, you know what I'm saying?
Speaker A:It's like you have folks in their early 20s to folks in their 70s, and we're all breaking bread.
Speaker A:We're all black, we're all queer, and we're all just, you know, in proper community together.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:That is very, very important.
Speaker A:Especially even in the Twin Cities is very important, you know, so thank you for that.
Speaker B:Well, a lot of that has to do is if we decide that that's what we're going to practice, then that's what we do.
Speaker B:Because a lot of people, just for survival, you have your own little pods, you know, you have a little Kiki group, but it doesn't necessarily interact with any other groups because you don't need to.
Speaker B:But to have a space where all the Kikis can come together in whatever way for those moments of, who are we to each other?
Speaker B:What does that.
Speaker B:What does that mean about who we are to each other?
Speaker B:Is there any future?
Speaker B:Does it matter at all, even?
Speaker B:But what I found is that every time that we, for example, pulled together, folks, for Harry's Hangout, those of you that don't know Harry's Hangout, it's something that happens every two months at the QT Castle.
Speaker B:2212 Kovacs.
Speaker B:Black queer trans men is what we're looking for.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:You are all welcome.
Speaker B:This led me after rsvp because I bring a lot of food.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But by.
Speaker B:But by bringing what?
Speaker B:Good food.
Speaker A:A lot of good food, by the way.
Speaker B:It's the whole point.
Speaker B:Get some good food and give Some people, some space to sit with each other, which I think is something that we also don't do.
Speaker B:We're usually always having to do something.
Speaker B:You have to.
Speaker B:You have to go to work, you have to party.
Speaker B:You know, you have to get high, you have to get drunk.
Speaker B:But what if you have to get to know each other?
Speaker B:You know, I'm not saying it has to be 24 7, but even if it's like 15 minutes of, well, all of a sudden there's a conversation about some people that you didn't know and not that you have to like, okay, now we're going to be best friends.
Speaker B:Like, no.
Speaker B:The fact that your energies have shared the space is something that's.
Speaker B:You really can't define it, but it's something you take away from the evening and then, of course, go party or be in touch with people.
Speaker B:We've been.
Speaker B:I'm not saying we've created any marriages or anything, but one person did tell me that a book club was.
Speaker B:Was decided people wanted to read stuff together, so they created their own book club.
Speaker B:I see more people connecting with each other in different areas that I don't know whether it happened as much before.
Speaker B:But also people come to me about wanting to get in touch with people, you know, so I'm.
Speaker B:I love being the conduit, but I also like being the participant.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think more than anything, I hope that as you are creating space for people and as you're being the conduit, that you are also being fed.
Speaker A:Also you're getting the things that you need.
Speaker A:You're not always being the nurturer and the.
Speaker A:And the caretaker and the one who's always holding space.
Speaker A:But, you know, someone is holding space for you, for your emotions, for all the things that you're holding in that you haven't really felt.
Speaker A:Wondering if that is something that, you know, I have.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or you desire.
Speaker B:I definitely desire it.
Speaker B:And I would say that it's gotten really close these last couple of hangouts, and.
Speaker B: opefully will be in August of: Speaker B:And I think it.
Speaker B:It does have to do with intimacy.
Speaker B:And that's something that, you know, where we.
Speaker B:We talk about, what does it mean?
Speaker B:How scary is that?
Speaker B:You know, because that's when.
Speaker B:That's when we know that your heart's going to get broke if you're.
Speaker B:If you're too emotionally intimate with somebody.
Speaker B:But we Sort of, but we're.
Speaker B:That's the animal part of us that we need.
Speaker B:Not that it's going to be animal, like tear each other apart, but it's that connection that we want to practice of being together.
Speaker B:And sometimes it's uncomfortable.
Speaker B:You know, Sometimes you don't get what you need, or sometimes you get exactly what you need.
Speaker B:You know, I've got to witness that myself.
Speaker B:The last couple of the last Harry's hangout made me very happy.
Speaker B:I'm gonna say that's good.
Speaker A:I'm happy.
Speaker A:I'm happy that you're happy.
Speaker A:I'm really happy that you're happy.
Speaker A:I do have a question, and I think that is kind of related to.
Speaker A:We're gonna take it.
Speaker A:We're gonna take it back a little bit to the 80s, right?
Speaker A:You are.
Speaker A:You start in one of, you know, a cult classic, Back to the Future.
Speaker A:You starting Back to the Future.
Speaker A:And I had one we're talking about, sir.
Speaker A:You were there.
Speaker A:You were there.
Speaker B:I was there.
Speaker A:I wasn't.
Speaker A:I wasn't there.
Speaker A:My father wasn't there.
Speaker B:Were you even born.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:You weren't even born yet.
Speaker A:I wasn't born.
Speaker A:I wasn't born in 85.
Speaker B:Okay, you're born when it came out then.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I have a curiosity about.
Speaker A:You talking about having to, like, hide, perform straight.
Speaker A:Yes, man.
Speaker A:Was that what was happening when you were being.
Speaker A:When you were getting this.
Speaker A:This show, this movie that is a cult classic?
Speaker A:Was that what was happening with you?
Speaker A:How were you navigating that throughout that process?
Speaker B:So what was interesting about that time in particular?
Speaker B: So we're talking: Speaker B:And what month are you born in?
Speaker A:I was born in 89 by May.
Speaker B:Oh, 89.
Speaker B:Oh, you're.
Speaker B:You were born when the seat.
Speaker B:When we were shooting Back to the Future, too.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, because I was doing a kind of.
Speaker B:It was very.
Speaker B:A very specific scene that was needed.
Speaker B:I was only there for that particular work, which was great because it was me.
Speaker B:It was a live band.
Speaker B:It was 200 extras that we got to have dance.
Speaker B:So we were having a party the whole time.
Speaker B:And because I had an outfit on, I was supposed to be the band leader.
Speaker B:I. I had a role to play, so I got to really be in charge of things.
Speaker B:And I just started playing this character who they then wanted to film in a certain way because they're kind of like, oh, wow, we'll let Harry do that.
Speaker B:We'll let Harry do that one.
Speaker B:So I got to participate in creating the character, and that Energy.
Speaker B:But I didn't even know.
Speaker B:But first of all, sidebar.
Speaker B:I didn't know what the rest of the movie was about.
Speaker B:I was really hired for this one scene in the song.
Speaker B:It was like, okay, this is very cool, right?
Speaker B:Work a couple of weeks and I'm out.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah, but we didn't know.
Speaker B:But I didn't have.
Speaker B: ld I say this, because it was: Speaker B:I had just broken up from a relationship with a model because I was also very sort of bisexual.
Speaker B:This was a good thing that we broke up.
Speaker B:And then I'd come back to LA and.
Speaker B:Wow, sorry.
Speaker B:Dreaming about going back to LA at certain times.
Speaker B:And so when this particular job came up, I was also up for a TV series at the same time as a lead character.
Speaker B:And the name of the series was he's the Mayor.
Speaker B:And so it was between me and Kevin Hooks, I believe.
Speaker B:And then I had the deal already for abc, but then this movie thing came up, and it was a Spielberg movie.
Speaker B:Now, if I had been playing the mayor, he definitely was macho, but, you know, I'm an actor, so I was like, giving the macho, macho, cool, slick vibe.
Speaker B:But then this other character was going to be in a Spielberg movie.
Speaker B:My agent was saying, take the TV series.
Speaker B:I went, it's a Spielberg movie over here.
Speaker B:That let me do that.
Speaker B:So my excitement about being in.
Speaker B:Because it was the second movie I did a role in.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Or the first one anyway.
Speaker B:One that big that it.
Speaker B:That I didn't know what it meant because there was no connection that it was going to have with the black community, as far as I knew.
Speaker B:You know, it's like, this is.
Speaker B:This is existing and whatever that other universe is.
Speaker B:And I get to be like little black kid that runs through the.
Speaker B:Runs through the scene again.
Speaker B:But we didn't know it was going to be run through the scene again with Back to the Future, which did become its own sort of juggernaut, I have to say.
Speaker B:But I never felt that my sexuality had anything to do with my work, because I think that was the.
Speaker B:That was the other way that you got through is that don't bring your sex to work.
Speaker B:You know, I'm.
Speaker B:All the straight guys did, you know, they got to, like, flirt with all the girls and carry on as, like, you know, beat kinds of dogs, all that sort of stuff.
Speaker B:And I got to laugh with them.
Speaker B:But the people that I wanted to flirt with were over there in the other corner.
Speaker B:And it's like.
Speaker B:And if I go over there, then it looks Like, I'm part of them.
Speaker B:So I'm just going to stay here and be quiet.
Speaker B:So there was the denial of my community, which I really kind of felt bad about.
Speaker B:However, being in Los Angeles at that time, there were quite a number of black gay clubs.
Speaker B:So I was like, go to the Catch One, they're going to the Horizon, which of course we call the Snatch one and the Horizone.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:And you would have.
Speaker B:And that's where everybody could go.
Speaker B:Even the.
Speaker B:Even the straight boys could go there.
Speaker B:And it was okay, you know, that was just a weird time in Los Angeles because I was living in Hollywood also.
Speaker B:I was living in.
Speaker B:If you've been to Los Angeles or been to Hollywood, there's the Grauman's Chinese.
Speaker B:And I was literally up the hill right there on the.
Speaker B:That I could look down into Franklin on Franklin street and see Hollywood Boulevard.
Speaker B:So I was in Hollywood.
Speaker B:So it was really a fascinating time.
Speaker B:We could afford.
Speaker B:We found a house for $300 a month.
Speaker B:I don't know, that was somebody's estate sale.
Speaker B:And all of a sudden we're like, living in the Hollywood Hills.
Speaker A: Can never happen in: Speaker B:Unless.
Speaker B:Unless you.
Speaker B:Some uncle's gonna give it to you.
Speaker B:No, it's.
Speaker A:You know, they're not even black gay clubs in LA anymore.
Speaker B:They're not, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:Because whenever I go there, I'm not going to the clubs because I haven't gone to the clubs in a while.
Speaker B:But I figured there must be no.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:I'm gonna.
Speaker A:Like parties.
Speaker A:They're like parties that happen.
Speaker A:I think there's a party that happens.
Speaker A:There's a party on Friday nights at the Abbey.
Speaker A:So all the black people go there.
Speaker B:That's not.
Speaker B:No, no, I. I remember.
Speaker B:I knew the Abbey.
Speaker B:That's West Hollywood.
Speaker B:Yay.
Speaker B:There was black clubs in the.
Speaker B:Oh, I mean, there was.
Speaker B:Yeah, there was black clubs all over.
Speaker B:No, there were three.
Speaker B:There were basically three.
Speaker B:That was Horizon, Catch one, and Papa Bear, which was in the hood.
Speaker B:It was in the hood.
Speaker B:I never went there.
Speaker A:Well, I don't know my LA listeners.
Speaker A:If there are black gay clubs, let me know.
Speaker A:Because I've only been to la, like, twice, and, you know, I don't.
Speaker A:There are no black gay clubs.
Speaker B:I'm gonna find out.
Speaker B:I have to talk to my friend George.
Speaker B:But all my people are older.
Speaker B:I'll have to find someone who's gonna go like.
Speaker B:So could you please do it?
Speaker B:Some searching for me where the research.
Speaker A:On the Black gay club.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:In la.
Speaker B:There was even an Egyptian gay club that I went to in downtown LA called Akbar.
Speaker B:Oh, God, it was hot.
Speaker B:Anyway, and that was, that was.
Speaker B:That was like five or six years ago.
Speaker B:So that's still there.
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:Okay, cool.
Speaker A:I'm gonna have to check that out then.
Speaker B:Recommend it highly.
Speaker B:Yeah, but there, there were those spaces that you could disappear to.
Speaker B:And I think that's another thing that.
Speaker B:Of how we got through, you know, there was like.
Speaker B:Now it's like you say everybody, you know, everybody can be gay everywhere, you know, you can.
Speaker B:As long as you're, you know, you're not gonna go to a country western bar and it's just a gay country western bar are, I guess.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But then also with yourself, even coming from another.
Speaker B:Another country, another culture that doesn't allow your identity to be celebrated, Is that something that you're also aware of when you're going to.
Speaker B:Into clubs and spaces here in the US.
Speaker A:That's a good question.
Speaker A:I feel like I wasn't very pressed.
Speaker A:Practically.
Speaker A:I didn't understand the racial dynamics of engaging in queer spaces because in Nigeria we're all like black people.
Speaker B:Yeah, Right.
Speaker A:But also, you know, we are exposed to culture from a Eurocentric lens.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I'm not saying that being gay is a Western import.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But when you, when colonization has taught you that your sexuality is bad, Right.
Speaker A:You also look to colonization in court.
Speaker A:You look to whatever media you have, right?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Queerness to you.
Speaker A:And so usually it's usually like Eurocentric stuff.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so coming here, it was, oh, we're all.
Speaker A:I didn't understand that there were some racial dynamics to actually being queer and leaving.
Speaker A:You know, I just thought that we're all gay, so we're all gonna be happy together, you know, regardless of our.
Speaker B:And then color, you found out the truth.
Speaker A:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker A:And I think that for me, that was the shift and that was what changed.
Speaker A:And so now, like, intentionally I seek out spaces that, you know, I take out a lot of black queer spaces.
Speaker A:I'm, you know, I come to Harry's hangouts when I'm out of town.
Speaker A:I love Atlanta a lot because Atlanta has a lot of those spaces.
Speaker A:Yeah, I like Atlanta.
Speaker A:I like D.C. i like New York for.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I don't find myself there, you know, being there and being a community with people who are like, black American or Caribbean or African or like the entire black diaspora, but just being a community with people is always like my go to.
Speaker A:So, yes, it has shifted.
Speaker A:You know, living in Twin Cities is not really, you know, really have Harry's hangouts.
Speaker A:And if someone throws a party apart, you know.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:So we're trying to throw a party at least every other month for people to get.
Speaker B:Always get to come and hang out, and now we get to go really party.
Speaker B:That's what I want to say.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I think that.
Speaker A:I think that something I would say about living here is.
Speaker A:I think in a lot of bigger cities with a predominantly larger, maybe, like, back population, there is a tendency to focus on the commercialization of our identity, right?
Speaker A:And so it's like, oh, we're gonna throw X amount of parties and charge 50 for entry and do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:I think here there is a focus on building community.
Speaker A:From my experience, I know people may have different experiences living in Twin Cities, but for my experience as someone who's black and queer and living here, I think that we focus a lot more on.
Speaker A:I mean, we like to have a good time, but like to go out and do the thing.
Speaker A:But, like, we focus a lot more on how are we dealing community with ourselves.
Speaker A:So that even though when things are rough, when things are tough, you know, we have each other's backs and we are, you know, a proper community, like we claim that we are supposed to be.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, I think for myself, that's when I hear that also is something where I get sort of re.
Speaker B:Energized about trying to keep Harry's hangout alive, you know, keep it still going.
Speaker B:Because part of me goes like, it's.
Speaker B:I don't have to do it.
Speaker B:You all can do it.
Speaker B:But then somebody said, no, it's Harry's hangout.
Speaker B:So I'm gonna try and do at least through the end of the year, like, maybe there's three more, two more.
Speaker B:And recognize that it is kind of special because we're choosing it.
Speaker B:You know, you have to.
Speaker B:We're inviting.
Speaker B:We're inviting our friends, but we're choosing to come.
Speaker B:You're choosing to come to some place for sure.
Speaker B:And it's not.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's not a sex club, you know, it's not a.
Speaker B:It's not a bar, per se.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:And it's not.
Speaker B:It's not church, you know, it.
Speaker B:It maybe is our private club.
Speaker B:I mean, when all.
Speaker B:When the lesbians go, oh, can we go?
Speaker B:I want to go, no.
Speaker B:You know, and I have a white partner, and can they go, no.
Speaker B:So I don't care what else you're doing.
Speaker B:We're really doing this affinity because you can put this in the cloud.
Speaker B:One of the things I have felt for a number of years are our stories, the black gay male stories are being pushed down because we have to center all the other identities.
Speaker B:So therefore our identity is sort of swirled to the outside.
Speaker B:It's not at the center, but we have a very kind of specific experience as well.
Speaker B:You know, like what hap.
Speaker B:Like what happens when we get together in that house is that we can't name it, but it's a place where, oh, we get to exhale together as opposed to us making other spaces where people can exhale.
Speaker B:We get to do it with each other.
Speaker B:And that's unique.
Speaker B:It's like, oh, oh, is this is what that's like.
Speaker B:You know, I always wonder when, like you.
Speaker B:What's it like to be all white and go into a country bar, country western bar.
Speaker B:That's your people, and you all know what the rules are.
Speaker B:So what if we have our people come into a space, and especially one that's really nice.
Speaker B:I mean, we're really happy about the mansion and we just get to be with each other.
Speaker B:You can still kiki.
Speaker B:You know, everything's going to happen like that and not everybody's going to get along, but it's just us for a moment.
Speaker B:And I think that it's so important for us, even if you just come once.
Speaker B:But just the idea of what it was like to be in that group of black queer men who are actually talking to each other about either talking about themselves or talking about the world and how the world affects us, we're giving voice to that.
Speaker B:That doesn't happen in a lot of other places.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I love just sitting back in the other room and I'm watching, watching this happen, and I want to.
Speaker B:I don't want to record it.
Speaker B:It's like, I don't want someone to come in and do a documentary about Harry's hangouts.
Speaker B:Like, no, this is about us being human with each other because we, we need to.
Speaker B:And if, if, if we begin to make that the practice that we're human with, we can be bitchy with everybody, of course, but to be human with each other, if that's a practice, then there's some hope for us.
Speaker B:I'm not trying to save everybody.
Speaker B:I. I mean, I'm really sorry that the world sucks.
Speaker B:I want my Harry's hangout homos to have.
Speaker B:To have a heart, to have a heart of their own that hopefully they get to take somewhere Else.
Speaker B:And I speak from that because I didn't have it when I was here in the Twin Cities.
Speaker B:I was teaching for 17 years at McAllister.
Speaker B:There were two gay black professors.
Speaker B:One left early, and the other one, Marlon James, you know, he retired as well when I went away.
Speaker B:So there was a dearth of identity, connections.
Speaker B:I made lots of friends.
Speaker B:I mean, that's the key to survival in higher ed.
Speaker B:FYI.
Speaker B:Anyone listening?
Speaker B:It's like, be friends with people, and then your.
Speaker B:Your roles become clearer and your support's there.
Speaker B:But having identity with a community I didn't have.
Speaker B:I had the arts community, you know, in the sense that I knew.
Speaker B:I knew the organizations, I knew actors, I knew directors.
Speaker B:I knew artistic directors and designers and even foundation people.
Speaker B:You know, I was in.
Speaker B:In that artistic community.
Speaker B:But there was no specific black, queer, gay male places.
Speaker B:And like Atlanta, of course, they're everywhere.
Speaker B:New York, there's enough of them there, of course, even in Los Angeles.
Speaker B:But I, you know, felt that.
Speaker B:Am I missing one that's here, like, something I didn't know about?
Speaker B:There's a secret.
Speaker B:There's a secret group of black queer men that you have to know where they're going in order to be a part of.
Speaker B:And that.
Speaker B:I didn't go to the saloon or the 90s or the brass rail in the old days, because I was going to run into students there.
Speaker B:And I went, okay, I don't want to run into my students.
Speaker B:Last thing I need to do is start flirting with, you know, a sophomore in college.
Speaker B:It's like, no, I like my job.
Speaker B:But since that time, it's like, I don't have.
Speaker B:I don't have the need to go to those clubs.
Speaker B:But I still had a need to connect with us.
Speaker B:And when the idea came up, because I was.
Speaker B:I was also working on a theater piece about Lynn Burke, game changer.
Speaker B: ith creating the high five in: Speaker B:And he played for the Dodgers.
Speaker B:They all knew he was gay.
Speaker B:The Dodgers said, you should marry.
Speaker B:We'll pay you to marry, to get married, he said.
Speaker B:To a woman.
Speaker A:Oh, damn.
Speaker B:But he said, no, you know, but anyway, I had.
Speaker B:Was working on a piece about him, and there were, like, eight black queer men that were in it.
Speaker B:One was straight.
Speaker B:I'm sorry.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And so I said, we should just get together after.
Speaker B:And I had run into Roxanne, and they were telling me about the QT Castle.
Speaker B:And so I said, let's just come over this place and hang out and it was wonderful.
Speaker B:And then I was talking to another Jason Jackson, as a matter of fact, because he's one of the few connections that I have in the community.
Speaker B:I said, come over to.
Speaker B:I have this mansion that Roxanne is letting us use.
Speaker B:Call your friends and just come over and hang out next time.
Speaker B:We had 13 people, they loved it so much.
Speaker B:Oh, my God, let's create something.
Speaker B:Then we had about 25 and then it went to 35, which was like more than enough because we had a James Baldwin event a year ago, James Baldwin's 100th birthday.
Speaker B:And you know, since it's, it's, you know, it varies between 20 to 25, 30, 15, I don't know.
Speaker B:But it's created a space for me to feel that I at least see some other black male gay faces on a semi regular, because I don't.
Speaker B:Otherwise, you know, I'm not in those circles.
Speaker B:But now I've made a couple of friends, one of whom I just called a while ago, who's closer to my generation.
Speaker B:And it's, yeah, we want to be friends.
Speaker B:And it's a different.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's learning how to do the work to connect with each other differently.
Speaker B:It's not like usually you have a job or you're dating somebody.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And so I have two questions.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And I know that we are pressed for time.
Speaker B:Oh, are we?
Speaker A:One is, one is.
Speaker A:So the play you did has been done already.
Speaker A:He's going to come back.
Speaker A:Because I never got to see that.
Speaker B:We were just doing a workshop of it.
Speaker B:And so currently it's on pause, but I think it's definitely 20, 26, because what I'm.
Speaker B:One of the things that I want to do with it is I want to use the experiences of what happens in Harry's hangout to be how the play moves across country.
Speaker B:So I wanted to really have the idea.
Speaker B:My dream is to have this idea of.
Speaker B:There's this piece about Glenn Burke, but it's also an opportunity for a group of black gay men to get together and talk and then see what happens after that.
Speaker B:So the game goes on.
Speaker A:Yeah, please let us know about that because now my curiosity is very peaked.
Speaker A:But I have one question and then I'm going to do some rapid fire questions for you.
Speaker B:Okay, good.
Speaker A:Just to get to some lighter questions.
Speaker A:You were in the Twin Cities for teaching at McAllister, right.
Speaker A:So you left.
Speaker A:You did you, you did your work in theater and film and commercials, came became a theater professor, started Taught for over a decade.
Speaker A:How did you survive?
Speaker A:Because you said you weren't.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You didn't have a lot of.
Speaker A:You didn't know where the black gay folks were.
Speaker A:You were.
Speaker A:You weren't going out.
Speaker A:How did you survive in the Twin Cities for that long without any community?
Speaker B:There's another friend of mine who also teaches, a black woman who teaches at.
Speaker B:Who is teaching at McAllister.
Speaker B:She's still there.
Speaker B:Duchess Harris.
Speaker B:And we had both had similar high school experiences, like going to a private boarding school.
Speaker B:So we knew how to work with white folks.
Speaker B:It's like, I know what that world is.
Speaker B:You know, I'm used to being the only one.
Speaker B:So that was another reality that I could always roll back on, because even though I may have done a lot of theater, not all my theater was black theater.
Speaker B:You know, primarily it was white theater.
Speaker B:That I was the black role, or there was a role they decided could be a black actor.
Speaker B:So getting here is like.
Speaker B:And my partner.
Speaker B:And my partner, who I did not expect.
Speaker B:I was gonna.
Speaker B: ally weird to me because it's: Speaker B:So I also have his world that I've been.
Speaker B:That I'm.
Speaker B:That I'm a part of.
Speaker B:And it didn't.
Speaker B:I had no other resources, you know, because the job was pulling.
Speaker B:So I had to make sure that I was doing the job well.
Speaker B:I had some major problems at the job during a couple of years.
Speaker B:A couple of those years that, you know, I didn't need to be there.
Speaker B:And I let them know I was acting out, so to speak.
Speaker B:And I don't know if that had to do with.
Speaker B:I didn't have any community as opposed to.
Speaker B:I was just uncomfortable being in that environment.
Speaker B:I didn't.
Speaker B:I didn't like myself being there.
Speaker B:And then I made a.
Speaker B:Then I made a turnaround about, okay, then, so how do you stay in your job?
Speaker B:Cause that's what it was.
Speaker B:It was a job.
Speaker B:And I had to stop thinking about it as it wasn't my work, but it was just the job that I had to go do.
Speaker B:And when I made that switch, then it was really clear that I'm not going to have any other community.
Speaker B:I'm just going to do this thing.
Speaker B:I'm going to not worry about trying to find.
Speaker B:Which is.
Speaker B:Now that I'm even saying it, I wasn't trying to find that community.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:I just need to keep working, and I needed to keep the arts community around me or be in the arts community, because that was also feeding my work at school.
Speaker B:So that was full time, I have to say.
Speaker B:I mean, that just.
Speaker B:I was always at everybody's shows.
Speaker B:I was bringing students to different organizations.
Speaker B:I was bringing artists to campus.
Speaker B:Those things were exciting to me.
Speaker B:Every year or so, I got to actually act in a play in the Twin Cities so that my students got to see that.
Speaker B:Yeah, I actually know what I'm doing.
Speaker B:It's like, this is what I do.
Speaker B:But I didn't have that black gay community.
Speaker B:I didn't know.
Speaker B:And a part of it.
Speaker B:I didn't know that I was missing it until Marlon left.
Speaker B:And then it was like, oh, there's even nobody I can like, call and kind of, like, bitch with.
Speaker B:And they know what it's like.
Speaker B:I mean, the woman.
Speaker B:Yes, we were bitching about being.
Speaker B:We were both chairs of our department, so we were the black chairs, and so that's what we would bitch about.
Speaker B:But she's married, has three kids.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not.
Speaker B:And she knows I'm gay.
Speaker B:But it was.
Speaker B:That was not part of our issue, you know, that we were.
Speaker B:That we were coming together on.
Speaker B:So I.
Speaker B:So when I retired, it's like I just knew that I'm missing something.
Speaker B:And this was literally two years ago.
Speaker B: August of: Speaker B:I mean, it was during the pandemic.
Speaker B:So I wasn't, you know, wasn't.
Speaker B:I wasn't on campus.
Speaker B:Everything was zooming, you know, zooming classes and doing all of that, but I didn't even know that I missed it.
Speaker B:And I think that's why it was so kind of disturbing to me of, so where are they?
Speaker B:And I didn't know how to get that community.
Speaker B:I didn't know how to be a part of that community.
Speaker B:And to be honest, one of the things I always feel like, well, I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm not gay enough.
Speaker B:It's like, right.
Speaker B:Really, you know, or I don't have.
Speaker B:I don't have the queerest sensibility that I should have.
Speaker B:I call it the.
Speaker B:The language of liberation, you know, that a lot of, you know, organizers and leaders have, especially given these times, you know, in George Floyd and how we're doing active black liberation, their species and healing and trauma and all those things.
Speaker B:Like, I don't do that.
Speaker B:So, sorry.
Speaker B:I'm glad y' all are doing it.
Speaker B:Yay.
Speaker B:Go.
Speaker B:That's not what I do.
Speaker B:What I do is I get people together to have.
Speaker B:To have time to know each other, you know?
Speaker B:And I think that when I recognize that, that that's what I really like doing, it was like, oh, I can do this thing.
Speaker B:Because I was doing another project called Outside Voices, which is where every week during the pandemic, Wednesdays at 2, Saturdays at 1, was in the park laughing and screaming and saying hello to people on a regular basis for 3 and a half years.
Speaker B:And that's what got me through, because there was.
Speaker B:I was, like, in the community.
Speaker B:This was in Powderhorn Park.
Speaker B:So I was in a community where people were walking by or being in there.
Speaker B:And so I got to be the wonderful, crazy man in the park that would invite people to laugh and scream.
Speaker B:And they did.
Speaker B:Or all the.
Speaker B:Sometimes it was just me, sometimes it was 20 people.
Speaker B:So when I found that, okay, so where are all the black gays that live in the world?
Speaker B:And how do I.
Speaker B:Because they're not going to come to the park and laugh and scream.
Speaker B:I don't think there was a few, but it wasn't, like, part of the place you would go.
Speaker B:Coming out of sort of a void from McAllister.
Speaker B:I didn't know how.
Speaker B:I didn't know how to get there.
Speaker B:I didn't know how to get to y'.
Speaker B:All.
Speaker B:You know, I didn't.
Speaker B:I didn't know if I would even be welcome or invited.
Speaker B:But just the idea of, like, okay, let me just see what happens if we sponsor some space.
Speaker B:And two of the.
Speaker B:Two of the things that always happened in the first two or three is that people were always saying, we don't have a space where black queer men can come together.
Speaker B:And I would say, in my head, you're sitting in it, like, right now.
Speaker B:This is.
Speaker B:This is the space that we have.
Speaker B:If you want to find another one, great.
Speaker B:But we have.
Speaker B:We have one right now.
Speaker B:So how do we celebrate it?
Speaker B:And now that it's moving forward, there's a.
Speaker B:There's really a desire to go and kind of, like, return to some of those people who were there at the beginning who haven't come back for whatever reason, because I think they were unconsciously part of how the community got built.
Speaker B:And how do we know where they.
Speaker B:I probably wants to go back and be able to thank all of them, but we didn't get everybody's, you know, information back then because I was intentionally not wanting people to feel that they were signing up for something, but they were just coming, having a good time, and they got the leave that they wanted.
Speaker B:Now it was like, who was there?
Speaker B:One of Those people.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Okay, that was.
Speaker B:That was a lot.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:It's 14.
Speaker B:You have some more rapid fire questions.
Speaker B:Go.
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker A:Before the rapid fire question.
Speaker A:Well, let's just name that.
Speaker A:I know you talked about.
Speaker A:You don't have the language of black liberation of the organizers and all the things, but you are also doing the work.
Speaker A:You're not doing it in the way that they're doing the work.
Speaker A:You are organizing people as well.
Speaker A:You were building community.
Speaker A:You are cultivating joy and resilience.
Speaker A:Your.
Speaker A:The spaces that you have, you have hosted of people talking about different issues of, like the Baldwin birthday or just different things that have different conversations that have started from Harry's hangouts that are very important also as well.
Speaker A:So I don't want you to take away from that.
Speaker A:I want you to celebrate that also, that you are also doing something, contributing yourself and your own form of activism to the movement.
Speaker B:I'm glad it's brought out that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So now we could do our rapid fire question.
Speaker B:Here we go.
Speaker A:So what are the top.
Speaker A:What are your favorite three productions you've been a part of?
Speaker B: I helped create the roles in: Speaker B: id a production of Ragtime in: Speaker B:And the third one.
Speaker B:What would be the third one?
Speaker B:There's a lot of things.
Speaker B:Oh, three, two years ago, I did a fringe show called Baldwin's Last Fire, and it was written by a friend of mine, Reggie Edmond, and it won the Golden Lanyard Award.
Speaker B:And I was in it, and I had to direct it, which I never want to do again.
Speaker B:And those are.
Speaker B:And it was so satisfying to be in those.
Speaker B:In those three.
Speaker B:Now there's things I've directed also.
Speaker B:I did a production of Queen Bee that we did in the parks during the pandemic.
Speaker B:There was Impact Theory of Mass Extinction, about two queer black girls in Minneapolis who take an elixir and go back to the time of dinosaurs.
Speaker B:And the dinosaurs are like, it's a dinosaur drag ball.
Speaker B:Fabulous.
Speaker B:And then just this, earlier this year, I directed a show with Zamia Theater Company called Displace.
Speaker B:And it was about the two homeless.
Speaker B:Homeless community and the condo community playing a game like Dungeons and Dragons.
Speaker B:And so they were competing crews.
Speaker B:And we did it with this huge.
Speaker B:In this huge theater.
Speaker B:It was amazing.
Speaker B:It was like cast of 25.
Speaker B:Like, what was I thinking?
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But it was wonderful, and I had such a great time doing it.
Speaker B:Okay, next Question.
Speaker A:That is awesome.
Speaker A:Is there any production that you really want to do?
Speaker A:Whether I act or direct in it.
Speaker B:Oh, I want to do Little Shop of Horrors.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Little Plant.
Speaker A:Do you want to act in it or you want to direct it?
Speaker B:I want to direct it, but maybe be the voice of the Plant single.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:I can see that happening.
Speaker A:Are there any.
Speaker A:Who are the artists?
Speaker A:Who are some of your favorite artists that you've collaborated with throughout your career?
Speaker B:Oh my God.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:There's one of my friends who's a director in New York.
Speaker B:His name is Clinton Turner Davis.
Speaker B:I was just there.
Speaker B:I had to help him with some knee surgery, but he's, he's fine now.
Speaker B:I'm trying to think who else I.
Speaker B:There's mostly it's been, it's been a while since I've had, you know, those experiences of doing like a long term show with anyone.
Speaker B:Regina Williams, of course, is always here, but I never get to work with her anymore because she's, you know, busy being all over the, all over the Twin Cities celebrity.
Speaker B:The celebrity.
Speaker B:I worked with Greta Oglesby as well.
Speaker B:And like she's amazing.
Speaker B:You know, I would really like to do something with T. Michael Rambo, you know, just to do a performance, some sort of production or an event with.
Speaker B:With him because I think that would be, would be a lot of fun.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm not.
Speaker B:I was going to do a show this fall at a Park Square theater.
Speaker B:This play called It's Only a Play, but it was all white cast.
Speaker B:It's a really silly play about a Broadway opening of a show.
Speaker B:And it's like, eh, I don't care.
Speaker B:So I told them no.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:I felt kind of.
Speaker B:I felt kind of bad because they're never going to ask me to act again.
Speaker B:And then I went, that's okay.
Speaker B:I'm fine.
Speaker B:I've acted enough.
Speaker B:Anyway, that's the next question.
Speaker B:Talk so much.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker A:It's okay.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:You're totally fine.
Speaker A:Are there any art?
Speaker A:I know you had mentioned a couple, but like I want, I wanted to know more artists like in.
Speaker A:On a much more general perspective, like dream collaborations that you like.
Speaker A:I'm dying to work with you.
Speaker A:Whether it's in a player, in a film.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, you know, who wouldn't want, would not want to work with Ryan Coogler, you know, I mean, yes, I want to be in Sinners, Sinners 2.
Speaker A:Ryan Kugler, Pooh, Harry Waters, Jilliard in season, in Sinners 2 or Black Panther 3.
Speaker B:Anyone just call me.
Speaker B:Yeah, Just send that out, Harry through your networks.
Speaker B:Like Harry's available.
Speaker A:Going to make that happen.
Speaker B:And he's affordable.
Speaker B:Trust me.
Speaker B:He's affordable.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:I would really love to do.
Speaker B:I would love to do another TV series because I did a couple.
Speaker B:I did one called what a Country.
Speaker B: This was in: Speaker B:And we were all in an American citizenship class.
Speaker B:So I was an African prince.
Speaker B:My name was Prince Robert Moboto, and I was from Mobotoland.
Speaker A:Embarrassed.
Speaker B:But I was very good.
Speaker B:I had.
Speaker B:I had a good time.
Speaker B:I was very funny.
Speaker B:Being very dry.
Speaker B:And then I also did a TV series for the Disney Channel called Adventures in Wonderland, which was a live Alice in Wonderland show.
Speaker B:You can look that one up.
Speaker B:Just put that in your thing.
Speaker B:Alice.
Speaker B:I mean, Adventures in Wonderland.
Speaker B:And I was Wonderland.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Tweedledee and Tweedledum were the brothers that were like hip hop dancers in the forest.
Speaker B:You know, we didn't have a home, but it's very animated.
Speaker B:But it's live action.
Speaker B:Like we had singing and dancing all through it.
Speaker B:I'll send you a link.
Speaker B:It'll be fun.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:I'm sure I'll be able to find it like on Disney plus or something.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, well, actually, we used to be on Disney plus.
Speaker B:Those.
Speaker B:They didn't pay us.
Speaker B:We tr.
Speaker A:Oh, damn.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:Seriously?
Speaker B:I got a check once for minus one cents.
Speaker B:It's like, what?
Speaker B:What do you mean?
Speaker B:I don't know what this means.
Speaker A:Minus one, minus.
Speaker B:Minus one.
Speaker A:That is crazy.
Speaker B:That is crazy.
Speaker B:Anyway, so we're.
Speaker B:We're not on the.
Speaker B:We're not on Disney plus, but if you on YouTube, we're.
Speaker B:We're there everywhere, you know?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Okay, cool, cool.
Speaker A:What are like the top three songs you're listening to right now?
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:But see, I do do history in the sense that I like old.
Speaker B:I'm listening.
Speaker B:I always will.
Speaker B:Listen to Luther Vandross.
Speaker B:We're having a party any day.
Speaker B:I'm going to show.
Speaker B:Let me just go to my.
Speaker B:My liked songs.
Speaker B:Everything Must Change by Olita Album Adams, which is such a real deep song to me.
Speaker B:Tookie Tookie, Tuki Tooky Tookie Tookie Tookie.
Speaker B:No Place I'd Rather Be, which I know it's so corny, but I just love that kind of.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That kind of song.
Speaker B:Song.
Speaker B:I was playing a lot of 70s and 80s R&B, you know, but more Funk.
Speaker B:More like funk things.
Speaker B:I'm trying.
Speaker B:I'm looking at my list here.
Speaker B:What have I been playing over and over again?
Speaker B:I'm trying to get out of my sad songs because I was.
Speaker B:There is a version called.
Speaker B:I mean, a version of this Easy by the Commodores that I just shared with a friend of mine because I wanted them to know that that's how they make me feel.
Speaker B:Easy.
Speaker B:Like Sunday morning.
Speaker A:Oh, that is.
Speaker A:That is so poetic.
Speaker A:Okay, cool.
Speaker A:Who's your favorite artist of all time?
Speaker B:Oh, Lucifendros.
Speaker B:He can sing any, any, any, any, anything.
Speaker B:I used to be a big Diana Ross fan, but, you know, she's old now, But I still, like.
Speaker B:You all are being like, y' all are Beyonce.
Speaker B:I was Diana Ross nuts.
Speaker B:I had everything.
Speaker A:Oh, my God.
Speaker A:Don't you say she's old now.
Speaker B:She's fabulous.
Speaker B:You should be that fabulous when you get to be old.
Speaker B:That's all I got to say.
Speaker A:True.
Speaker A:That is true.
Speaker A:That is true.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:We have Beyonce.
Speaker A:Y' all have that.
Speaker B:I want to see Beyonce.
Speaker B:We'll see Beyonce.
Speaker B:What did you say?
Speaker B:I want to see Cowboy Carter kicking up at 70 years old.
Speaker A:You know, we will be there.
Speaker B:You will be.
Speaker A:You know, we'll be there when she's 17.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker A:Okay, the final rapid question.
Speaker A:The final rapid fire question is, what is your guilty pleasure?
Speaker B:Oh, popcorn.
Speaker B:Kettle corn.
Speaker B:Popcorn.
Speaker B:I can eat it all day.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Okay, cool.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is.
Speaker A:It's been.
Speaker A:It's been such a great conversation with you.
Speaker A:But before I let you go, I wanna.
Speaker B:I want.
Speaker A:I want you to share.
Speaker A:What is the one thing that you're holding on to in this iteration of your life?
Speaker A:You are retired.
Speaker A:You are choosing critically the kind of work you wanna be a part of, and you are cultivating community.
Speaker A:What is the thing that is your whole you're taking with you and you're holding on to during this time?
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Me and my brother call it.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We're winning because there's so much struggle going on.
Speaker B:So if we.
Speaker B:If what?
Speaker B:What we want to do is just reframe what's going on for us, and right now, at this moment, we can say, yes, we're winning, and we can be happy and not feel guilty about it.
Speaker B:So I'm really grateful that I get to experience this happiness and I get to share that happiness with other people.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's the gift I feel that I've still been given at this time in my life.
Speaker B:I get to make people happy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I try and make.
Speaker B:Try and make Harry happy, because that's why I'm here.
Speaker B:Make Harry happy.
Speaker A:That is beautiful.
Speaker A:And thank you for making me happy.
Speaker A:And thank you for making all of us happy.
Speaker A:Very.
Speaker A:We really appreciate you, Harry.
Speaker A:Thank you for coming on.
Speaker A:How can the people find you?
Speaker B:I'm on Facebook.
Speaker B:I haven't.
Speaker B:Apparently I have an Instagram.
Speaker B:I just haven't used it.
Speaker B:But I'm.
Speaker B:Why I don't care.
Speaker B:You want to come by and have some tacos with me?
Speaker B:Please?
Speaker B:I will post some things about family and occasionally some events, but otherwise it's like I want to have.
Speaker B:I want you to be human with me.
Speaker B:Please.
Speaker B:I'm available.
Speaker B:I'm not hiding.
Speaker B:Chicago and Lake.
Speaker B:Long as you're not a star.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Thank you, Harry.
Speaker A:Well, thank you, Harry.
Speaker A:Thanks, folks, for watching.
Speaker A:I'll share Harry Waters Junior's Facebook Instagram in the description if you care to follow.
Speaker A:But Harry values physical connections.
Speaker A:Just know that.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And also the next Harry's Hangout.
Speaker A:I probably share that on my social media.
Speaker A:So follow to be updated when that is happening.
Speaker A:Well, thank you, Harry and thank you for watching y' all and listening.
Speaker A:Until next time.
Speaker B:Next time.
Speaker B:Peace.